We who preach the gospel must not think of ourselves as public relations agents sent to establish good will between Christ and the world. We must not imagine ourselves commissioned to make Christ acceptable to big business, the press, the world of sports or modern education. We are not diplomats but prophets, and our message is not a compromise but an ultimatum. A.W. Tozer

Saturday, February 16, 2008

Beth Moore Reprised

I have received an e-mail complaint about my commentary on Beth Moore's teachings (the specific commentary has been removed due to being obsolete, and relevant information included in newer articles). The writer told me that Beth is a godly woman who has been called by God to her ministry and, by my criticizing Beth's teachings, I was slandering her. I was also told that I should stick to fighting the enemies of the church. Now, there are some issues about this complaint I want to address so as to clarify my purpose in exposing false teachings and false teachers.

First, in order to slander someone a falsehood must be told. Since everything I wrote in the commentary is true, I cannot be charged with slander. If anything I write on this blog is found to be in error, I welcome correction because I certainly don't claim to be flawless. You can write me at the e-mail address on my profile or you can post a comment on the site by selecting "comments" at the bottom of the article.

Secondly, I will only attack false teachings or bad behaviors and never the person. I do not judge whether someone is or is not godly.

Thirdly, I believe whether someone is called of God can be determined by their fruit. If they consistently teach falsely or if their behavior is not consistent with a calling of God (e.g., they behave arrogantly and obnoxiously as does Beth on her DVDs), then I have to doubt God has called them to that ministry.

Fourthly, any false teaching is the enemy of the Church. While some false teaching isn't as harmful as others, all should be exposed and corrected. False teaching is like cyanide - a little can do great harm. We need to objectively determine the severity of the error in order to know how strongly to address it. Errors come in a few "sizes":

1. Heresy. This is a violation of fundamental Christian doctrines which determine whether one is truly Christian.

2. Aberrations. While not as harmful as heresy, aberrational teaching can cause great harm, either spiritually or by placing people in bondage to the bad teachings. This type of teaching can very often lead to heresy and, at least, distorts the teaching of the Christian faith.

3. Bad teachings. While not as bad as the previous, this type of teaching can lead to the others, depending on the subject matter. A person with consistent bad teachings will have a skewed view of the faith.

Apologists will "go to the mat" to fight heresy. Aberrations will be fought strongly against. Bad teachings may or may not need strong countering. Most of Beth Moore's teachings fall into the last type, but many are aberrational. I have not come across anything heretical by Beth, so in that regard she is a better teacher to listen to than women such as Joyce Meyer or Gloria Copeland.

Now, a very basic problem behind all error is bad hermeneutics; that is, the method of Scriptural interpretation. Rather than practicing exegesis (reading the meaning out of the text), bad teachers practice eisegesis (reading into the text their own ideas). Eisegesis has been humorously described as "hazardous hermeneutics" or even "Rorshak hermeneutics" (one sees what they want to see). I will use a couple of examples from Beth Moore to make my point (these are taken from the DVD series Believing God):

1. The passage in question is Mark 9:14-24. Moore claims that when Jesus came down from the Transfiguration with the three disciples He had taken with Him, He found the other nine arguing about why they weren’t taken with Him: Why had Jesus picked just Peter, James and John? Why weren’t the others good enough? This arguing supposedly gave them “a failure of faith.” Moore said that they had argued with the Pharisees and the teachers of the law “until they talked them out of their faith.” And this is why she says we are not to argue with “Pharisees” who want to destroy our faith in what God can do. The problem is that if she had continued the context to verse 29 her theory would have been dismantled. Jesus told them the reason they couldn’t cast out the demon was because “This kind can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting.” (NKJV). Jesus didn’t say it was because they were arguing about why they weren’t chosen or because they were arguing with the Pharisees about anything. Since the text doesn’t say this, it is not proper for Moore to make this story up out of whole cloth.

2. Romans 10:8-10. Moore says, “He has ordained that part of the salvation process is we are going to confess ‘He is Lord’ with our mouths.” There are a few problems with this statement. First, since when is anything but faith required for salvation? Moore has added this as a requirement, yet the Bible doesn’t say that. Second, this passage doesn’t say that this is the only method of making the profession. Third, does this then prevent a mute from salvation?

Christians tend to be very objective when confronting cult teachings, or teachings that distort major doctrines, but when it comes to favorite teachers their objectivity gets lost. The personality of the teacher trumps examination of their teachings.

While maybe not noticed in her books, Beth Moore's arrogant and obnoxious behavior on her DVDs are something Christians should not emulate or even condone. Additionally, her teachings are rife with error and pop-psychology. Although Beth Moore indeed has some excellent teachings, her error is of the nature that she should be warned against and not given a pass because of her popularity. Women have much better role models in Kay Arthur, Joni Erickson Tada, Jill Briscoe, Martha Peace and others.

57 comments:

Anonymous said...

"Although I have no interest or exposure to Beth Moore's
teachings, your analysis of critical review is very
instructive. Thanks for clarifying the distinctions
amongst the forms of Errors that deserve exposure within
the Body.

I find it shameful that the Body is sometimes treated
like we are a club unto ourselves, deserving only praise
without criticism. Certainly we should avoid planting any
roots of bitterness, but we also bear a responsibility to
strive for purity. Without holding each other to account
(including such JUDGEMENT as Jesus prescribed in Matthew
18), of what value is our 'membership'? Are we not all
called to be fruit inspectors to whatever degree we have
been qualified?

Now, since you raised their names, where might
categorize the errors of Gloria Copeland and Joyce Meyer?
Again, "it don't matter to me" since one taste of their
medicine convinced me to turn down seconds.

BLESS YOU for your watchful eye and well-trained ear for
TRUTH!"

Anonymous said...

An excellent article on the issue. Easily understood, well constructed and irrefutable on all points. I've heard of neither the teacher of which you speak nor most of those you mention. As for Joyce Meyers--I've not given her a pass on anything I can think of and have never heard in her teachings anything other than basic practical daily application. of scripture. My review of her works, however, has not been extensive. I've only heard second hand of some of her aberrations including the belief that Jesus suffered in hell (rather than going to Abrahams bosom)as part of our payment for sin; and that she is guilty of pop-psychology. Care to give us a bullet point run-down of her errors for future reference?

societyvs said...

I saw this article and I just had to respond – I haven’t the slightest who Beth Moore is – but there was a few things in your article I want to discuss.

“Since everything I wrote in the commentary is true, I cannot be charged with slander” (TWB)

True? Everything? How can you in all good faith call Beth arrogant (“they behave arrogantly and obnoxiously as does Beth on her DVDs”) when you in turn use a sentence like this? Now slander is one thing (no one thinks you’ve done this) – but arrogance or deceit (on some small level) is another.

“Heresy. This is a violation of fundamental Christian doctrines which determine whether one is truly Christian” (TWB)

So going against God is the same as going against common church doctrine? Is the church’s interpretation equal to God? If so, make room in the Trinity for ‘one more’.

“The problem is that if she had continued the context to verse 29 her theory would have been dismantled. Jesus told them the reason they couldn’t cast out the demon was because “This kind can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting.” (NKJV).” (TWB)

Actually her theory is basically guesswork – but the verse 29 passage you use as a proof – is well known to may have ‘been added at a later date’. Even my NAS bible has this little letter beside it to let me know this fact. That’s not a good proof for that passage – or maybe it is – maybe it was commentary added to the bible by mistake (again – maybe it was someone’s opinion).

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hello Societyvs:
Let me respond to you comments.
You ask how I can make the claim that everything I stated in my original commentary was true; easy - it WAS. If you can prove otherwise, please do. It is NOT arrogant to make a truth claim.

I don't understand your comment about heresy and going against church doctrine. I believe I mentioned going against Christian doctrine, which isn't the same as going against church doctrine. the fundamentals of Christian doctrine are found in Scripture.

As for Mark 9:29 and whether it is in the original: this is a matter of textual criticism. I have studied the issue for several years and am thoroughly convinced that the Received Text is more accurate than the current eclectic texts based on the Wescott-Hort tradition. In that case, Mark 9:29 is authentic and is an excellent summation to prove Moore's misuse of Scripture.

societyvs said...

"I don't understand your comment about heresy and going against church doctrine" (TBW)

You make a point about how to determine if 'one is a Christian' via church doctrine (or the fundamentals). Well, that puts church doctrine fairly high in my opinion - it's able to determine someone's faith in God per se (and is also likely unquestionable?). Isn't this similar to God - in a sense - that church doctrine is determining someone's salvation (or their standing with God)?

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi again Societyvs,

You have misunderstood/misquoted me. Here is my statement:

"1. Heresy. This is a violation of fundamental Christian doctrines which determine whether one is truly Christian."

I do not say heresy is a violation of "church doctrine," rather it is a violation of "Christian doctrine." Different churches may have their own doctrinal stances, but Christian doctrine is found in the Bible. God has given us His Word, and we are bound to it. If we decide to formulate a doctrine contrary to the Bible (e.g. that which is found in LDS, JW, etc) then that is heresy.

An example would be any church which claimed there are other ways of salvation besides through Christ. This would be heretcal because Scripture says otherwise.

True Christian doctrine comes right out of Scripture, which is the Word of God. Does that make sense?

If you would prefer a more direct communication, use the e-mail provided in my profile.

Anonymous said...

As a person who has read a number of Beth Moore books and participated in a number of her Bible studies, I find the evaluation of her ministry/teachings extremely judgmental (not to mention inaccurate). And where do you get the idea that SHE is arrogant? As I have read some of the postings on the blog, it appears that there is a problem with pointing out the speck in your brother's eye--and failing to see the log in your own.

I am equally amazed at the comments posted by some who consider the "watchman's" comments insightful and "irrefutable"--in spite of the fact that they are unfamiliar with Beth Moore's ministry/teaching.

Beth is not a perfect person or a perfect teacher; but neither is ANY Bible teacher or preacher. As believers, we need to learn to "eat the meat and spit out the bones." I would venture to say that the "watchman" doesn't get it right all the time either, but I am not going to call him/her a "false teacher" because he is imperfect in his understanding of Scripture.

God has used Beth's ministry to speak to my own heart on a number of different issues. I am grateful for what He has done in me through her ministry.

I think God is much more forgiving than His People are. He knows that NONE of us have it all right doctrinally, and He'll straighten us out when we see Him "face to face." What is critical is having a heart that is after His own. And it is pretty clear that Beth does.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Thank you, anonymous (5/1/08), for your comments. I will address your concerns in a way that I hope will give you a bit of change of mind in regards to this subject.

You say that you find my evaluation of Moore’s ministry/teachings to be “extremely judgmental (not to mention inaccurate).” Firstly, I never addressed her ministry, because I am not familiar with her ministry in general. What I addressed were her teachings. There is nothing wrong, biblically, with being “judgmental” about someone’s teachings. In fact we are told by Jesus Himself to “judge righteously (John 7:24). Paul says we are to make judgment about all things (1 Cor. 2:15) and to judge what is said (1 Cor. 10:15).

You say my analysis of what I personally watched on Beth’s DVD was inaccurate. Have you watched that DVD series? If so, what were my inaccuracies? Did you read my first posting about Beth on December 27? I described Personal Freedom Outreach’s reviews of Moore’s teachings, and it seems this excellent apologetics ministry finds the same problems I found. The board of directors of PFO are some excellent scholars and theologians (including Dr. James Bjordstad) as are their board of reference (including Dr. Jay Adams, Dr. Ron Rhodes and Dr. Norman Geisler). There are numerous apologetics ministries who have studied Moore’s teachings and some have even discussed with her problems they have seen.

Those comments which say the article was “insightful” or “irrefutable” even though they are unfamiliar with Moore are basing their opinions on the information I provided as to Moore’s teachings, which are accurately described.

I “get the idea” that Moore is arrogant by watching 10 hours of her performance on a DVD series. She continually speaks about how important she is to God that He gives her many direct revelations. Her implication is often that she has much authority in her teachings because of these direct revelations.

You say my postings demonstrate arrogance, but I would like to ask you how? I do my best to stay humble before God because of the great responsibility I have with my ministry. What I do is provide factual data and compare with what the Bible says. Making claims of truth isn’t arrogant. Also, I have made it plain that I am open to correction for whatever errors are discovered.

As you rightly point out, none of us is perfect, nor do we “get it right all the time.” But James 3:1 says that those of us who are teachers will be judged more severely, so we must be sure that we are as accurate with our teachings as possible. Beth Moore’s teachings are often very aberrant and she promotes bad teachers as well. I demonstrated a couple examples of Beth’s twisting of Scripture as well as adding to what Scripture says. I am more than willing to e-mail my full review of her DVD series “Believing God” if you’ll contact me at the e-mail on my profile.

Not every believer has the discernment to “eat the meat and spit out the bones,” and may well choke on the bones. And there are unbelievers who will be misled by Beth Moore’s teachings to an aberrant understanding of the Christian faith.

I understand you feel God has used Beth’s ministry to help you; God can use anything for His benefit. I even acknowledge on my posts that Beth has some excellent teachings. But, her error is such that it negates the good she has to offer. As I pointed out, there are many more solid women biblical teachers to be learning from. If you have not read my first post, I recommend you do so, and pay particular attention to the end where I cite PFO’s comments.

Meanwhile, I would ask that you look at Moore’s teachings with a very discerning mind.

In Christ,
Glenn

the elder said...

Too bad folks don't understand "theological discernment" any"moore".
To say Beth Moore represents a Baptist theology would be a misrepresentation. She is a very "dynamic" speaker, albeit a bit "loud." (but her theology is boarderline-- "speak the word," gee where have we heard that? not from Baptists!) And she probably has a bigger following that you do!
Too bad the Southern Baptists won't let her go to seminary and get some real good biblical training... It may clear up some of her bad apologetics.

the elder

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Howdy, elder,

Just a couple thoughts about your comments: I’m sure that it was meant in jest, but I do need to point out that the number of one’s followers is no judgment of their teachings! And I’m not looking for any “follower,” rather I am just looking to be informative in the realm of discernment issues.

As for Southern Baptists not allowing Beth to attend seminary, I don’t understand why they do not. Going to seminary is good for education, but doesn’t have to mean the woman would then be a pastor. (I am one of those who believes the Bible clearly states women are not to be in leadership positions in the church.) Nevertheless, one doesn’t need to go to seminary to get good biblical training to clear up bad teachings; I have never been to seminary, but I have been studying theology and apologetics for over 30 years. While I don’t consider myself on the educational level of those having seminary training, as a layman I certainly am able to discern what the Bible teaches. Anyone in the body of Christ should be able to do the same.

Glenn

Anonymous said...

Beth Moore is serving the Lord with all of her heart and changing women's lives all over the world. Why is it that those who can't do it always seem to criticize those who are doing it.

If you are so sure that she is not teaching God's people corretly, what are you offering as an alternative other than criticism and gossip....both of which I don't think God would be very happy about.

Beth does not care if she is popular or not...she cares that she is rightly representing the heart of God to women...and that she does very well.

Her heart is teachable and open.
If she is in error why don't you follow the Bible and go to her in private? Isn't this devisive to spread this around on your blog?

Bless you!

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi “Anonymous” of August 8th,

Whether one is changing lives is not the evidence they have the truth. Amma has changed the lives of people all over the world with her hugs, but she is teaching Hindu pantheism. I dare say that the Mormons are changing the lives of people all over the world, but I doubt if you'd be upset over my criticism of their teachings. And you make a pretty sweeping generalization by your implication that those who criticize false teachers are unable to change people's lives.

Contrary to your implication that there is something inherently wrong with criticism, I challenge you to say Jesus or Paul were wrong when THEY criticized false teachers. Also, it is not "gossip" to expose false teachings; I have no idea where you get that idea.

I don't deny that Beth may have a desire to teach God's word. The problem is that she doesn't do it "very well," rather she twists Scripture and claims direct revelation from God for her teachings. We don't allow the cults to get by with these actions, so why give Beth Moore a pass just because she is popular?

The Bible DOES NOT say I must go to Beth in private about her false teachings. The Bible only says we are to privately go to someone who has sinned against us. Beth's teachings are in the public arena and so are to be addressed in the public arena. It certainly is not "divisive" to publicly "spread around" the FACT that someone is teaching falsely in public. I'm "spreading it around" so that more people are alerted to Beth Moore's bad teachings and hopefully more people will look at her more objectively rather than just being deceived by their investment of time and money into her teachings. If the shepherds of our assemblies had been doing their job and exposing Beth's bad teachings from the pulpit, perhaps she would have cleaned up her act years ago and, if not, she would not be so popular today.

Have you read my other entries on Moore on 12/27/07 (“Beth Moore’s Bad Teachings) and 5/2/08 (“Beth Moore Revisited”)? I respectfully ask that, instead of “criticizing” me for pointing out that Beth is a bad teacher, you address my examples of where she teaches falsely; demonstrate to me where I am in error.

Please look at Beth’s teachings more objectively.

In His Service,
Glenn

Anonymous said...

I have just discovered your site today and will continue to watch it in the future. Bless you, Glenn, for writing about Beth Moore. My church which is known for sound teaching began running her DVD series early last year. They ran through three of them connsecutively to my dismay. I prayed for ten months and finally spoke to my pastor, who said he would not use her again, but then flipped and returned to Beth Moore because so many women were coming to hear her. I was greatly discouraged and the church leadership and staff began treating me coldly and unkindly. Ultimately, they did walk away from her, but it took many months.I later learned that my name had been used negatively in connection with the change at the church. I would glad bear the hurts I received again if God has used me to open the eyes of the leadership at my church, and hopefully, at other related churches. People don't always want to hear what God gives us to share, but we should be respectfully obedient. I was shouted at, and shunned, and I would do it again because God was pleased and my husband supported me fully. I pray for Beth Moore... to the degree that she has gotten off-track, she can be prayed back on track. But her site now shows that she is getting involved in the teaching of predestination, which opens a whole new can of worms. What are you thoughts on this? Thank you, brother, for being one of the rare spots of sound thinking about this teacher. The fine teachers at The Berean Call also stand with us on this.

Anonymous said...

One more thing... I spent nearly a year studying Beth Moore and her teachings at my church during the studies... I have been a committed believer for over 35 years and have served in serveral Christian ministries. At first, I didn't know quite why she was "off", mostly it was a red flag in my head that there were problems... that I needed to pay close to attention to what she said... and what she DIDN'T say... I had the strong sense that she is proud during one teaching, and I rebuked myself for having such a thought about someone I didn't know... God seemed to answer it a few weeks later, when Beth said that a friend told her she had to deal with her "pride problem." I believe she is a lovely, sincere lady who loves God... but not careful in her teaching... I find it too difficult to listen and learn from someone who is "mostly" right, but often not... I would rather move on to someone more solid. No one is flawless, but when the red flags go off in our heads, it's time to find out why and see what God wants to tell us... I continue to pray for this lovely lady who has touched so many lives. But continue sharing about her... if she gets better or if she gets into other trouble areas. We love her, but need not embrace all of her teaching.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hello anonymous of August 18th,

Thanks for your kind words. I'm glad to meet another discerning individual when it comes to Beth Moore. Have you by any chance looked at the other articles I wrote about Beth. I gave excellent examples of her teachings on 5/2/08, "Beth Moore Revisited."

My stand on predestination would be pretty much summed up in Dave Hunt's book, "What Love Is This?" which, as a reader of The Berean Call, you should be familiar with.

I agree with you; Beth has a lot of good stuff, but her error far outweighs her good.

Glenn

Anonymous said...

Glenn,

Thank YOU! I have felt virtually alone in this tide of pro-Beth Moore mania. The church today, unfortunately, is not as discerning as it should be and not willing to look up and verify the truth of a popular teachers words. Once people are sold, they tend to go into auto-pilot on ALL their teaching. If they LIKE them, then that's all that seems to matter. Bu as the Berean Call has written, the Church is driftiing away from the solid Word. Very troubling.

I never looked for trouble with Beth Moore. I just couldn't shake the strong sense that some things were very wrong so I did some private research, as we should all do, as good "Bereans."

I made a point to talk to no one at my church except my pastor, rather than risk causing division in the church.

Yes, I have read your articles, with gratitude because it further explained the things that I understood instinctively, with less training than you possess. Very valuable. I sent them on to a friend in another state who is appalled that her church has just begun the Beth Moore series. It is a tragedy, but not surprising, because we have been warned in Scripture that in the last days many will not tolerate solid teaching.

I would be grateful for any of your future findings of significance because although my church finally stopped using Beth, some of my friends are caught at churches who remain in their love affair with her.

It has been a lonely battle, filled with prayer, trusting that God will open eyes and hearts.

One last thing abouy your last comment that she has a lot of good stuff. I cannot agree with that. Most of it is weak, experiential stuff, with a bit of solid stuff thrown in from time to time. I appreciated your comment about cotton candy... no substance.

In Faithfulness to Him,

Ellen/AKA Anonymous

marie said...

Ellen,

I just saw this comment now and want to THANK YOU for it....it helps confirm that I am not alone, and my speaking to the leaders at my church was not out of line.

(Are you and I the same person???)

PJ's momma said...

Thank you, thank you! I have had red flags for a while now, and you said a lot of what I was thinking. I'm in the midst of another study (Breaking Free) and am ready to quit. It's almost NO scripture and pages and pages of HER. On DVD, it's one revelation (or poem or fairytale story or whatever) that God gave HER. Last week, she broke out into a long fairy tale and I timed it--7 minutes or so of reading--and I was thinking 'oh puke' the entire time. She got to the point, which frankly Stevie Wonder could have seen coming, and nearly everyone on the DVD and in our group oohed and aahed. I really felt like there's something wrong with me, but after talking to my leader, she feels the same--but this church also sticks with Beth because women come to hear her. Well, that's a problem. We should be going to hear the WORD. I confess, she did open my eyes when I first converted from catholicism and began to study the Bible, for which I am very grateful, but I am over her. It's like Max Lucado--more of the same thing over and over. I need more. I am not drinking milk anymore, I need solid food and this does not satisfy, nor is it sound teaching. Plus, the irony is nauseating. "Be in the world but not of it" and the whole crew goes to the holy land, or Greece, or Rodeo Drive to film an entire series? I need to jump into more in-depth study such as BSF (or please recommend something if you wish). Anyway, I'm rambling, but I thank you for your insight. Believe it or not, I googled Beth Moore+cult and your article came up! I am very glad it did too! Bless you brother!

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi PJ's Momma,

Thank you for your kind words. I am happy I was able to be of help in your discernment.

I have started "Breaking Free," but after two months I have only read 15 pages - getting the time for research lately has been difficult. I'm looking forward to getting deeper into it.

BSF is a good group. I have several friends that attend BSF and they all speak highly of it.

If you're looking for some good meat you might try The Berean Call newsletter. You can sign up for it on http://www.thebereancall.org/ It is a freebie and you can get it mailed or e-mailed (I get both). If you'd like a lot more suggestions, drop me an e-mail and I can give you lots of ideas.

May God bless you in your studies!

Glenn

Anonymous said...

You said, “I get the idea” that Moore is arrogant by watching 10 hours of her performance on a DVD series. She continually speaks about how important she is to God that He gives her many direct revelations. Her implication is often that she has much authority in her teachings because of these direct revelations."
Are your saying she doesn't have direct revelations from God? If one person dies but someone else gets healed from cancer, are they arrogant? This view may be the cause that some don't want to share their testimony. Does that mean if we haven't been to seminary, we shouldn't share the Gospel? Plant a seed and God will do the rest! Have faith, It's all in His hands anyway. Maybe you have to be a woman,
Southern, or speak in tongues to understand Beth:) Is this worth fighting for? Walk in love Beth!

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi Anonymous 3/11:

I can’t help but wonder if you are the same “anonymous” commenter on my article “Beth Moore’s Bad Teachings.”

YES, I am saying Beth doesn’t have direct revelations from God. If she did, her teachings would not be rife with error, including the very poor hermeneutics she often displays.

My statement about Beth being arrogant was supported by observations I made by watching her DVD series. I also have learned, by personal experience contacting her ministry, that she is not open to correction. Your statement about someone dying and another being cured of cancer having something to do with arrogance doesn’t make any sense to me, so I can’t answer the question. Perhaps if you explained what you mean?

I also don’t understand your question about not attending seminary meaning we can’t share the Gospel. I never even hinted at such a foolish notion - I’ve never been to a seminary and I certainly share the Gospel. In fact, EVERY Christian is responsible to share the Gospel.

Is this worth fighting for? Definitely. Christians should never let false teaching go unchallenged. Beth’s audience is massive, and she teaches a very poor way to interpret Scripture and then claims direct revelation from God to give her authority. This is what cult leaders do and we don’t allow it from them, so why is it okay when Beth does it?

Anonymous said...

You all are absolute idiots. She loves the Lord and teaches women to do the same.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Anonymous 4/18:

You call us all idiots - is that what Beth Moore teaches you to call people who expose her?

Beth Moore may very well love the Lord - I don't doubt that. And she may very well teach women to do the same - I don't doubt that. But you haven't addressed the issue:

Can you refute what I have proven about Moore's misuse of Scripture?

Can you refute my demonstration in other articles about her claims of special revelation from God?

Can you refute Moore's self-proclaimed obnoxiousness?

Just proclaiming us all "idiots" doesn't refute our points about her false teachings. But by calling us all idiots, it does say something about those who blindly follow Moore.

leeann said...

I just came back from a Beth Moore study. I wonder......how many people she would win to Christ if she spent her time and energy like you have. Look at how much time you have waisted criticizing. Actually in her Esther study, she does discuss this. You should get the series and watch her. I'm adding you to my prayer list tonight.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi leeann,

Is it really a waste of time to criticize false teaching? Jesus didn't think so when he criticized the Pharisees. Paul didn't think so when he criticized the Judaizers and other false teachers. In fact, are we not called to be discerning? Are we not called to expose false teachings?

I believe that, in all my posts about Beth Moore, I have proven she misuses Scripture and arrogantly claims direct revelation from God for her teachings. I don't want to read another Beth Moore commentary labeled as a Bible study.

terriergal said...

Glenn don't be discouraged. You are definitely doing the right thing. I just wanted to encourage you. There definitely is a LOT wrong with Beth Moore. I'm currently making up a post with more good links (yours included) on Beth Moore because her popularity sure hasnt' seemed to dwindle. About a year ago I could only find about four posts briefly critiquing Moore, but they are multiplying, thanks to you and people like you who are being diligent to test the spirits, and being thrashed for it as promised by Christ himself.

scatteredsheep said...

God bless you folks for this post. I am going to include this post and the rest on Beth on my blog if that is ok. I also wanted to mention the fact that most of these Women's bible studies, and not just Beth Moore are not only based on picking and choosing scripture to fit the agenda Beth is on, she also uses many translations to make her point. Further evidence to me that there is indeed a problem. I also have been to several of these studies, and have had red flags too but was afraid at first to mention it. Not anymore, and because of people like you guys talking about it the word will get out. I am so tired of Women's bible studies being geared towards the topics of self help and psychology. There is some interesting reading about Doctor Dobson, Steve Arterburn and the Women of faith conferences, the SBC and Beth Moore. lost of money to be made promoting "Christian" Counseling in these books, studies and highly priced conferences as well.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi Scattered Sheep,

I just looked over your blog and I like what I see; you are doing a great service with your own exposing of the parasites invading the church.

Feel free to post my articles on Beth. She needs to be exposed as many places as possible.

Again, well done blog!
Glenn

sunny said...

Having just read "The Jesus You Can't Ignore" by John MacArthur I am thankful for your boldness in calling false teaching and error what it is and clearly stating that it cannot be accepted. Jesus was clear with and about the Pharisees and religious leaders of that time and we must be clear and bold about the "religious leaders" of our time who are not faithful to the Word.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Thank you, Sunny.

I just got another comment which I will not post because, under my new rules, I don't post those comments which attack me and don't address the issues. I was told I was "bad-mouthing" someone and that I, instead, should lead people to God. And there were several other terms against my character because I dared criticize Beth Moore.

It's always a blessing to get a kind word like yours to verify what we in the apologetics ministry are doing is correct.

revrusty said...

I appreciate your emphasis on proper exegesis of the Scripture. Biblical hermeneutics in most churches is reduced to a 'free for all.' The winner is usually determined by who has the loudest voice, the greatest clout, or the most money. Beth Moore scores two out of three.

Anonymous said...

I have read your blog, reiterations and rebuttals...
But couldn't figure you out till you said - "(I am one of those who believes the Bible clearly states women are not to be in leadership positions in the church.)"

Now I understand...Your not "exposing" Beth Moore because she misquoted scripture, but because she dared to stand up and preach!

You see her behaviour as unfitting of a decent Christian woman. How dare she be confident oops arrogant in thinking that God would speak to her... (Sarcasm here)

I've checked several translations for this following scripture just to make sure it's accurate...

Galatians 3:28KJV
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, THERE IS NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE: for ye are ALL ONE in Christ Jesus

Funny,was the Word only given to you? (1Cor 14:36)

I hate to bare bad news Watchman, God speaks to women just as He speaks to men. It is MAN who has the problem with Woman, making her out to be inferior, not God. God loves women! That's why he made us because man was incomplete without us.

I have watched numerous bible teachings by Mrs. Moore and am currently doing a bible study right now on her "Break free" Series...and I tell you now, She is definitely not a false teacher. Her life bares much good "fruit".


And to paraphrase the bible: when everyone is speaking nice about ya, WORRY....

I am a woman...I am ordained and it is not because some man did it, it is because the LORD JESUS Christ DIED for ME too!I am no longer a slave and bound in the bondage of sin and man made rules but free in HIM and through HIS righteousness I am able to GO FORTH AND PREACH THE GOSPEL TO ALL LIVING THINGS...

oh and btw - perhaps if the mute were to confess Christ with his mouth, the LORD might loose his tongue!

Reply if you like, but I'll not be back...

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Well, Anonymous (3/1/10)

You obviously haven’t read my blog too closely.

Firstly, I do not know whether or not Beth has a leadership position in a church, which means that CANNOT be a reason I expose Beth’s Scripture-twisting. I expose her Scripture-twisting because it is Scripture-twisting. I don’t care if you are male or female, leader or layman - if you misuse God’s Word, then that should be exposed.

Nancy DeMoss is a woman teacher, as are Martha Peace and Jill Briscoe. Yet you do not see me criticizing their teachings just because they happen to be women - I don’t criticize their teachings because I haven’t seen any abuse/misuse of Scripture from them. So put away your victim card.

I see Beth’s behavior on the DVDs as certainly unfitting, and I have had many women tell me the same thing. And, yes, Beth’s demeanor is very arrogant - after all, she has direct revelations from God so you’d better not challenge her teachings.

I agree fully with Galatians 3:28. Whether male or female, slave or free, black or white, all people stand before Christ on equal terms. However, this has nothing to do with the roles God has given men and women in the home as well as in the Church. Scripture is plain that women are not to be in authority in the Church. But this has nothing to do with my analysis of Beth Moore’s poor hermeneutics, her claims of special revelation, or her pop-psychology and other bad teachings.

And, by the way, your use of 1 Cor. 14:36 is out of context.

I never, ever intimated that God does not speak to women as he does to men; God speaks to everyone through his Word. Those who claim special revelation, male or female, had better be lining up with Scripture with their claims or else they are false prophets.

I would never be one to claim women are inferior to men, and you will never see such an absurd charge on my blog. But stating that women have different roles than men does not make them inferior. Was the average Israeli inferior to the priests? Of course not, but there were specific qualifications to be priests. Different roles have nothing to do with being inferior.

You claim you are an ordained woman and yet you see nothing biblically wrong with Beth’s teachings. That tells me that even if you were a man you would not be qualified for ordination because you do not recognize false teachings so as to be able to protect the flock.

As for Beth, HELLO, almost everyone IS speaking nice about her and praising her. There is only a small amount of apologists who are trying to get the lemmings to wake up and quit following her over the cliff.

Now how about if you want to make all these baseless charges against me, you next time demonstrate from Scripture where my assessment of Beth’s teachings are wrong.

Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Chatfield,
Thanks for your research into and commentary on the problems with Beth Moore's teachings. My friend has started a study of hers and felt ill at ease and asked if I had ever heard of her. I'm going to forward her links to your site. Thanks for contending for the faith. It's especially difficult to point out problems with someone's teachings when that person's charasmatic delivery tugs at, and connects with, the heart-strings of a hearer's emotions. God Bless you and encourage you in your discernment ministry. ~Brenda

Anonymous said...

"If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved" (Romans 10:9-10).
If I say, 'I will not mention him, or speak any more in his name,' then within me there is something like a burning fire shut up in my bones; I am weary with holding it in, and I cannot" (Jeremiah 20:9).
"Everyone therefore who acknowledges me before others, I also will acknowledge before my Father in heaven; but whoever denies me before others, I also will deny before my Father in heaven" (Matthew 10:32-33)

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Anonymous 5/4/10<

You haven't done anything but quote Scripture. What is your point? That one HAS to use his mouth? Wrong - Scripture doesn't say that. You eliminate the mute from coming to Christ if the word has to be spoken.

Katy said...

I just read this thread with interest. I have read some of Beth Moore's stuff, and here's something that i noticed about my own reaction to it...
I can never remember a word of what I've read, and I usually can't even remember what the point of her writing was, months (or even days) afterward.
However, I can remember long passages of C.S. lewis, specific scriptures that I've read long ago, and lots of details about the tabernacle study I did 10 years ago. It's almost as if the Truth sticks to my heart and mind, and when I read Beth's stuff it ends up "floating away".

Now that's just my personal experience. I have the same trouble with Max Lucado. It's not they teach bad things all the time, as I happen to enjoy Max..it's just that the meat isn't really there.

I have found myself being afraid to read anything by a "famous" teacher now. it's almost a given that the more popular they are to the masses, the less likely they are to be right.

I'm going to check out that bereans site you posted. I just wanted you to know that your calm, rational, and diligent responses to your commenters made me open to what you have said. Humility always gets through to me.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi Katy,

Max Lucado also has lots of fluff, but what I find from him is usually just devotional type material. Beth is much more dangerous in my opinion, because of her false teachings leading many astray, as well as teaching poor hermeneutics.

Thank you for you kind words. I continue to pray for wisdom in this ministry, and how to deal with those who reject truth.

Kristine said...

Hi Glen:

Beth Moore's "So Long, Insecurity" satellite seminar was all the buzz at my church. When asked if I planned to attend, I smiled and said "No." People looked at me like I just flew in from Mars.

I finished reading SLI last week. Why this me-centered book with a questionable premise and flimsy hermeneutic is all the rage is baffling. It may say more about the state of American Christendom in general and "women's ministries" specifically than anything else.

I'm posting a review, "So Long One Moore Time," at my blog in late September.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi Kristine,

Could you e-mail me and let me know when you post your review? I would be interested in reading it. Personal Freedom Outreach (www.pfo.org) has just done an excellent review of this new book. It's always good to get more than one!

Glenn

Faith Clark said...

Dear Mr. Chatfield,

I "stumbled" upon your blog when studying today. I conducted a "google" search on the topic "beth moore on humor in the church" and found your blog mentioned on a watchdog site somewhere. I was glad to see that I am not the only one... ;)

I conducted this search because the Lord has used my "call it for what it is" personality so much the past few years that I too get called judgmental and negative on a regular basis by all the "blessed children of the King" crowds.

I actually did a search on the word blessed in the Hebrew and Greek in the bible and ohhh wow do Christian's use that way out of context!

I attend many churches for their flavors and to keep my eyes open to what is out there, but truly because the Lord asks me to. HE keeps me seeking His voice, in all things. That is a tough job these days. Especially in the type of ministry I have been called to do. Prodigal teens...another story ;)

One of the churches I attend is a large Baptist one. It is filled with Beth Moore fans. They even try to emulate her dress, mannerisms and lingo. It is like watching "The Stepford Wives" in real life.

But my point in responding is this; I am in a transition right now with the Lord in getting more centered in the eyes and ears HE has given me through my gift of discernment. Especially in what to call out (as we all still live in the flesh and try to battle our own logic),what not to and when.

I noticed a huge problem in the church I mentioned through a series of revelations the Lord gave to me about the leaders and members of that church. I exposed a stumbling block among them. Many are coming down with very dangerous physical ailments and are young to middle aged. I wrote a blog on the spirit of vanity though did not name the church or people. They know I go to many.

And as you would have it, I have been ostracized by many of the Beth clan. It did not bother me at first. I have never been one to have many female friends anyway. But it did when I noticed that after that if I had questioned a link or post they put on Facebook, they would delete my post and leave all of the others funny (un-reverential)comments.

I am curious to know what your opinion is about the draw towards marketing Christ in the name of "making His name famous",Hollywood type ministry methods that incorporate humor about God and claims of being "blessed" because of their hard work for God.

I recently was led by the Lord to look up the Greek explanations of the scripture, "because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it". Matthew 7:14

Surprisingly "strait" in that context means narrow due to obstacles being close about. And "narrow" means filled with trials and tribulations.

Now many Christians take that verse to mean to keep your relationship circles small, stay away from obvious sinners and try to keep your "road" narrow and focused on you, those like you and God as not to let anyone steal your JOY and Blessings as a "Beloved" daughter or son of the King.

A spiritual warfare book by Kay Arthur many years ago taught me to look up things in the Greek and Hebrew. Very enlightening.

I will continue to read your blog. My own I actually "dumb down" a bit as compared to what God reveals to me ;) and that is because of my ministry focus.

But I do appreciate your platform, even though other followers of Christ see harm in what we do, I know the LORD is Sovereign. I wonder why John the Baptist, Paul, Peter, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Moses and the rest were so persecuted ;)

Also another question...why are you so against Joyce Myers platform?

Peace in HIM,
Faith
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Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi Faith,

Welcome to my blog. I won’t post your second, abbreviated comment because this one came through. For some reason some of my articles have problems posting comments - the comments do post but appear not to. Very weird.

I’m glad to see another woman being discerning about the problems with Beth Moore and wanting to expose her. And it looks like you have a very worthwhile ministry to prodigal teens.

However, I am a bit troubled by your comment because you make claims of direct revelations from God - or at least that’s what it appears to be, and if I am posting your comment I don’t want other readers to be misled.

You said the Lord asks you to attend many churches to see “what is out there.” Is this just a figure of speech? You also claim to have been given a “series of revelations” by God about the leaders and members of a church and that you then exposed a “stumbling block” and intimated that this was the cause of “dangerous physical ailments” overtaking them. I don’t find any biblical support for this.

You also say you were “led by the Lord” to look up Greek explanations; do you mean by direct revelation or is this just a figure of speech? We really have to be careful with how we discuss things of this nature or it does indeed sound like a claim of direct revelation. This is the same where you say you “dumb down” things God “reveals” to you - is this revelation or just a figure of speech?

You asked about why I am against Joyce Meyers, which is a surprising question since you see the obvious problems with Beth Moore. Meyers is very much like Moore except where Moore’s teachings are usually orthodox, albeit with a twist of Scripture, Joyce is a heretic who teaches the Word of Faith. She also is a master twister of Scripture, teaches aberrational spiritual warfare models and a whole raft of biblical problems. I’d much rather people listen to Beth than to Joyce - at least with Beth they are closer to the truth.

Well, I hope you will continue to find worthwhile messages in my blog.

Blessings to you,
Glenn

Faith said...

I understand your alarm when watching Beth Moore.
I personally could not get past all of the opinion, emotion and romanticism of the last study I read.

But, I am also confused on your struggle with my comments about personal revelation from God in situations and circumstances I am in with my own walk with the Lord.

So, to avoid confusion I will explain another situation where the Lord gave me a revelation.

I had a friend who said the Lord led her to tell me to read Jeremiah. So I waited for Him to tell me to read it.

But finally one morning about a month or so later I felt led to finally do as my friend had prodded. But as I picked up the bible the Lord said to me, "I want you to read Obediah. I have something to show you".

I thought, "Obediah"? I had to use the cheaters to find it ;)

Within seconds of reading the first phrase I was in shock. The the Lord spoke to me again, " Obediah was the name of your great-grandfather and this has been put in you from before you were born".

I was speechless. Of course I read the rest and I am sure I got more of what the Lord wanted to place in my spirit. But I could not believe how He had just delivered that personal revelation to me.

To explain...

The Vision of Obediah. Thus saith the LORD GOD of Edom; we have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle. Obediah 1:1

Now the context in which that is applied to is what?

Well, to explain what the Lord showed me personally in this revelation is awesome. He will speak to us in these ways if we seek it.

After I read the scripture the Lord said, "This was put in you before you were born. Your great-grandfather's name was Obediah. Your ministry for the prodigals is named RISE. Your blog is called RISE UP. Your call letters on your messages to others are RISE UP FAITH. You are a soldier. You are in my will for you".

Now, I knew my great grandfather's name was Obediah. They called him "Obie". A couple days later I "stumbled" across an envelope my dad had given me with a rubbing of his brother's grave stone. In the envelope was an obituary on my grandfather James. He was a coal miner and Baptist preacher. Then it went on to describe that my great grandfather Obediah was an evangelistic Baptist minister. I had no idea! My father who is agnostic never really talks about his parents or grandparents.

Now, this is just one of many, many way the Lord speaks to me on a daily basis. I believe that the Lord of the Universe is very personal when we seek to walk close to Him. He works in and through ALL things. He is the "I AM" and our ways are not His ways so it benefits us to develop a close relationship with Him and be able to discern His voice above all of our fleshly err.

For example the Lord asks me to "see what is out there" in the different churches to continue to educate me on the "church" and the condition of the believers in it. It is not my own interest. I have four kids, a ministry and way too many other things going on. But in that action the Lord keeps my evangelistic heart prodded by not letting me get comfortable behind the walls of one particular church. He is also "training" my children. I SEE it. I live it.

I understand your platform, but are you saying that the God of the Universe cannot or does not use the Living Word to give us personal application and direction in our daily lives unless it is taken in context? Does He does not speak to us personally?

The Lord works through the Word and the gifts of the Holy Spirit is that billions of people could use it as God speaks to them through it and it can be applied to whatever circumstance they are in at any time and anywhere. That is what makes Him the "I AM".

There is supernatural power in the hearing if the Word.

Peace in Him,
Faith
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Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Faith,

I fully understand what you’re saying, and you are indeed claiming direct revelation from God. While I cannot deny this has taken place, I am very skeptical. Was it audible? I believe your experience with Obediah was more emotional, that the book caught your eye and reminded you of your great-grandfather. The fact that a passage says “arise” and you have a ministry named “Rise,” is coincidental. Your eyes caught the word “arise” and you made the association. That doesn’t mean it is a direct revelation from God.

I believe God indeed does speak to us through his Word, and that the Holy Spirit indwelling us guides us, but that is not the same as receiving direct personal revelation.

I also believe God can indeed give personal revelation, but it would have to be for a purpose and never contradict what Scripture says. I think 2 Pet. 1:3 sums it up.

Faith said...

In response to your last reply. No HIS voice to me is not audible;)

This circumstance was not coincidence. As I mentioned, I had no thought of my great grandfather (whom I had never met) as I sat down to read Jeremiah. My dad had really only mentioned his name a few times in my life.

My ministry for prodigal teens had been developed over the period of years. Way before I ever knew he was an evangelist. Also, my eyes did not focus on the word "Arise..." but the words "rise up...". That is when the Lord spoke to me through it that day and showed me the personal relevance of my ministry road's name. I do feel the Lord has a lot to do with impressing things on people's hearts and they actually think it is just one of their great "ideas" ;) He uses the WORD to keep us centered in His will in many ways.

The Lord had also reminded me of the fact that I indeed was a soldier and had gotten "saved" in Saudi Arabia. My role then in the Gulf War had groomed me for the battles that I now undertake for Him and those He calls. Though now it is a spiritual battle...

I think 2 Peter speaks most assuredly that our knowledge comes from Him. And I do believe that He works through all things in His followers to guide and help them to share His truth. We are each given very specific tasks He appoints us according to God's measure (2 Corinth 10).

I am amazed everyday that the Lord actually works through the small things to show me HIS supernatural omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence. If He wasn't capable, He would no be God. satan works through "coincidence". I love when God shows out in my life as to WOW me and keep my fire burning to share HIS truth.

My only wish is to do His will in my own life and for those that cross my path to be able to SEE and HEAR Him as I do and more.

The more we seek to do for Him the more He shows Himself in our lives. I will tell you that I will never see or hear things the same since He removed the boundaries that the physical world has and the lies within it.

Have you no amazing personal "God stories" to tell?

I think that personal revelation through all of His methods by no means take away from His WORD. I assume you are watchful of when people proclaim a certain scripture and they say that it pertains to a specific worldwide situation? For example when people said that Katrina and Haiti issues were God's judgment on those places for evil people and voodoo.

Not that I claim to know that as truth but do you not think that the Lord works through nature in judgment anymore? Are happenings in this world no longer used by the Lord to guide us and help the lost come to Him?

I do agree that the Christians who have decided to jump on the coat tails of the Hollywood and television (Hellywood and Hellevision) entertainment style witness are going to pay a big price for what they are doing. But if they are truly God's people, they do it in vain and it will be judged by the Lord lest they lead other astray in life here and now.

I do believe in a SOVEREIGN GOD who by no means will allow one of us to lead even one of His sheep to an eternal life without Him.

I think to pick scripture apart in such a way as to show confusion amongst HIS church sets us back and places us in the desert.

Christ spoke many times about not worrying about the small things like food, dress etc (per say)and how the Holy Spirit would have to be our guide in the times to come.

People just need to Accept, Believe, and Listen to HIS Word and the voice of the Holy Spirit in their lives. That is who needs to be the revealing source of the lies in this world for anyone.

It has been very freeing for me to cross over to "kingdom" sight in the last 7 years or so.

I pray those who don't use the Holy Spirit ask for Him to help step up their walk ;)

Blessings,
Faith
+

Anonymous said...

I thought I was the only one who felt uneasy with the Beth Moore Bible studies! Not because of any doctrinal issues, but because the DVD's are so draining and theatrical. I was in her new study on Revelation, "Here and Now, There and Then". The DVD's last anywhere from sixty minutes to an hour and twenty minutes. I left each session feeling like I'd been trapped on a Stairmaster. The class is dwindling fast; only seven women were present today. We started last month with around 30. The facilitator looked so discouraged at the small turnout that I didn't have the heart to tell her I was dropping out.

This particular women's Bible study at my church only does Beth Moore studies. Others have been suggested, to no avail.

Beth's blog is all about herself and her family. She refers to her husband as "my man" until I could scream. It's "my this" and "my that."

I'd rather walk on my lips than criticize Beth at my church. The pastoral staff depends heavily on "lay leadership", which includes the two women in charge of the Tuesday morning Bible study. They are the ones who won't consider other Bible studies.

I was in the non-denominational Bible Study Fellowship for a while, and it's very in-depth. No theatrics, stricly Bible study. I recommend it highly. I only dropped out because it was moved to a church too far away to commute.

I noticed no one has mentioned Anne Graham Lotz's Bible studies. She is Billy's daughter. I haven't seen her DVD's, but I have read many of her books. They have a lot of meat; someone mentioned they were looking for that.

I've enjoyed reading all the posts. Doctrinal issues give me a headache; I prefer to consult my NIV Study Bible. If I don't understand something, it has wonderful footnotes.

Can women really not attend the Southern Baptist seminaries? I know they don't ordain women, but I thought the seminaries were open to all. I was raised in the SB denomination, but defected over to the Methodists a few years ago.

Everyone have a nice day! :)

Faith Clark said...

Yes, I have seen and understand the situation in the southern Baptist churches. I live in the "Bible Belt" ;)

I will say that I too am a part of studies where people either drop due to spiritual warfare in their lives or they are not ready for meat or they are just not seeking as they should. Many reasons.

But have you thought that because you see the issue in this church you may be the one who is being placed there to expand their horizons(in a calm, enlightening manner)?

Yes, you will get some backlash. I went through it. But in the end, you may be the prodder for this particular group of God's people to get a wake up call. If it is what the Lord wants you to do and you back out, be sure HE will send someone else along the way who will be obedient and be willing to take the brunt. HE is FAITHFUL to HIS people even in their blindness.

I have been one who was asked to ask those in the study questions to get them to SEE. Not fun but it is worth it to see people grow.

Blessings and hang tough! James Mac Donald is a great study to get them to open their eyes to false teaching methods. No Drama or poetic ad lib to the WORD.

Faith
+

PJ's momma said...

Anonymous on 10/11/2010, you and I have had parallel experiences. I too walked away from the umpteenth Beth Moore study that my church has done, and while our leader understood and wanted to walk away herself, she didn't. When I told our group I was done because I was Bethed out, several of them nodded their heads in agreement, but I have no idea if they stayed on or not. I wanted to be honest with the folks in women's ministry, because they pay good money for those DVD sets, but they said, "She brings a lot of people in." I said, "I don't want to seek Beth, I want to seek GOD." They don't get it. Now this mega-church which I have one foot out the door of does these women's ministry programs about twice a year, but it's all about the blinged out t-shirts and caps and feather boas they sell, and the pictures they post on their facebook page, rather than being about Jesus. Rah-rah-sis-boom-bah, we're gonna make you feel good about yourself and have fun and maybe slip a little Jesus in there - or maybe not. It makes me very uncomfortable - why not put that much effort into serving the community or beefing up the benevolence ministries?
I am in my second year of Bible Study Fellowship now and I absolutely love it. As you say, no theatrics - just pure, in-depth study of God's word, which shows us HIS character, HIS power, HIS tenderness, HIS love, HIS sacrifice, etc. It is amazing. Anyway, I just want you to know you're not the only one; we've had very similar experiences and I know my former leader would be right with us, if she wasn't stuck staying for the whole study.
I highly recommend the book "Radical, Taking Your Faith Back from the American Dream." It says everything I've been thinking (painfully so) and I recommended it to our pastor/elders, who I hope have an 'uh oh' moment rather than 'aha' moment. A church that spends 14 million dollars on a new building, complete with outdoor fireplaces in a rainy climate, while pledging a mere five grand to save kids kept in cages, waiting to be raped by pedophiles, is sick. We are here to glorify GOD, not ourselves, but many churches, leaders, authors, etc., have gotten it backwards. I am feeling very disillusioned, disappointed and disheartened. But love never fails and neither does the Lord.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hello PJsMamma,

THanks for that testimony. One word of caution about that book radical; there are some very problematic teachings in it. Gary Gilley, and excellent apologist, has done a review at:
http://www.svchapel.org/resources/book-reviews/4-christian-living/688-radical-taking-back-your-faith-from-the-american-dream-by-david-platt

Anonymous said...

Glenn,
I just wanted to commend you, not just at doing all of this, and speaking TRUTH where it is needed (The LORD'S Really pressing this on my heart to bring this up to my Church to get Beth Moore studies out). But the fact that you care so much about what all of us are writing, that you take time to just write a response to everyone who brings up a question or rebuke. You are very bold with the Truth, I give you A LOT of respect for what you're doing.

Thank You

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hello anonymous 1/29,

Since I believe that God led me into the apologetics ministry, I take it very seriously. Not only do I find it important to expose error, but I also find it important to lead people to recognize such error so as to learn better discernment. Which is why I also find it important, when necessary, to respond to commenters who are still in error, hoping that they will see the truth.

For those such as yourself who give encouragement, I think it is also important to express my thanks for such kind words. Kind words are rare things to hear in the ministry (just ask any pastor), but even more rare in the apologetics field, which makes them all the more cherished. It is always a blessing to receive encouragement from fellow believers.


Blessings to you,
Glenn

Anonymous said...

Hello my dear Brother,

Well, I am disturbed by something. I notice that your preaching is thinly veiled criticism of other preachers. I fail to see any uplifting of the Holy Name of Jesus or preaching of the Good News here. I see, instead, criticism of Anglicans, Church of Christ, Saddleback Church, almost every denomination there is. It behooves all of us to remember that the Holy Spirit is the discerner--not sinful man. HE reveals discernment to the listening heart. We are not instructd to "call out" others in a very public, "billboard-type" fashion. If you read the Holy Scriptures, you will notice that time and time again, the ones who thought themselves "above" their brothers and sisters, or the "chosen" ones were actually the very ones Jesus had to weep over. I see NO humility in your posts, brother. I see no preaching of the Good News, but a whole lot of finger pointing and name calling. Please remember that you were called to preach the Good News of the Gospel. That Christ is The Way and The Truth. Men and women can never be equal to Him. We have to put on His robe of righteousness because our robes are filthy rags--no matter how much we study or how "good" we perceive ourselves to be. If you preach against sin and for the Good News of Jesus, then the Spirit will convict the hearts of the faithful. We must not try to do His job for Him. Judge not that ye be not judged.
It is time to put aside the profesional jealousies. Christ Himself said He has many sheep of other folds and they hear His voice. HE is the Shepherd, not you or I. We cannot pull the splinter from our brother's eye when there is a beam in our own.
God bless you and give you courage and love--first for Him, and then for His sheep. Love wins hearts, not judgment. That is God's alone.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hello Anonymous 4/5

I am disappointed that you find my teaching (not “preaching”) to be “thinly veiled criticism.” I thought it was pretty plain criticism!

This blog is an apologetics blog, not a gospel-preaching blog. The purpose of my apologetics ministry is to expose false teachings so as to warn Christians away from it - to protect the flock which already has the gospel. It is also to help show those in false systems why they need to leave them. At the same time, I think you will find there are also some posts with some edifying thoughts presented.

When I expose church systems for being apostate, it is so people might realize to avoid those places or leave them if they are already there.

The Holy Spirit also gives the gift of discernment, and gives the gift of teaching. I believe I have been called to the apologetics ministry for a purpose, and therefore I believe I have the gift of discernment and of teaching.

We as Christians are indeed called to “call out” false teachers and false teachings in a very public way. How else are we to protect the flock except by warning them of dangers. Christ himself “called out” the Pharisees in a very public way. Paul in his 1st letter to Timothy even named names. In Ephesians Paul tells us to “expose” the deeds of darkness. It’s the mentality that we aren’t to do so, that allows false teaching to run rampant in our churches, and allows people to be sucked into the cults. Christ is indeed the shepherd, but He has appointed the church to be led by under-shepherds. Those of us in various ministries such as this one are in a position of a shepherd under the under-shepherds.

I have never presented myself as being above anyone. You say you find no humility, but I ask you - what are you looking for as an example of humility - that I don’t criticize false teachers? Is it really a sign of pride when one warns others of dangers? And I certainly don’t resort to “name-calling” as you stated.

Yes, we are called to preach the Gospel, but we are also called to expose evil. Both go together. “Judge not ...” is in the context of hypocritical judgment, which you will not find here. I certainly look at the log in my own eye first before examining the teachings of others. Remember, we are indeed called to “test all things” - and that IS doing the work of the Lord as we are called to do.

“Professional jealousies”? I think you are the one judging motives here. The only “judgment” I make is against teaching, not people. And contrary to your claim, that is what we are indeed supposed to do.

Now, my question for you, sir, is where specifically do you find error in what I have said in this post, or in any other? If I have erred, I am more than willing to be corrected, and have corrected many of my posts over the past couple years when errors have been brought to my attention. I examine myself all the time so as to remain humble before the Lord as I do what I believe I have been called in ministry to do.

Gretel said...

What would you say to this- I became a Christian by Beth Moore's teachings. My life has changed and I have encountered God and am now living by the Spirit and not by the flesh.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

I would say you became a Christian by the Word of God and not by Beth Moore's teachings.

Now, I have said Beth has some good stuff. BUT, her abuse of Scripture, claims of special revelation, and pop-psychology are all bad, and are false teachings. You may find milk from her, but you need to go elsewhere for the meat. God can use anyone's teachings to reach people. Beth was an instrument God used, but that doesn't mean God approves of her false teachings.

Anonymous said...

In 2010 my husband whom just past away Nov. 2011 was an ordained Baptist Minister,(attended Semenary) went in view of a call to a small Baptist Church, membership probably 150 anyway the men voted for him to come/ but one of the more dominate leaders called my husband aside and said this and I quote
" our church budget is low right now, so on Sunday and Wednesday nights we are running the Beth Moore Series, so we can increase our funds"

My husband was so grieved in his spirit that a woman was taking lead in the church and not only that........ they didn't trust God that the budget would increase if a godly minister was to Pastor.

Beth does not teach sound doctrine, her teachings personally are very entertaining with much drama.

another friend of mine told me that my husband didn't need to be there anyway with that type of mentality and spirit.

Thank you for your article of enlightment ________ Grieved In Spirit

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Grieved in the Spirit,

WOW! I would never have believed something like that was possible. That is so very, very sad. That is an assembly who definitely needs the Word of God!!!

Just goes to show you the cult mentality of those who follow Beth.