Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 2, paragraph 1:
He is most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin, and he is the rewarder of those who diligently seek hm.
Now, that last phrase, which I italicized, is 100% correct by the Bible, but to make it correct for the Calvinists who subscribe to this confession, they need to add: “after God regenerates them because they can’t seek him on their own, regardless of what you THINK the Bible says.”
After all, they add a lot of words to Scripture that they claim is implicit, e.g. John 3:16 really means “that whoever of the elect believes…” or 2 Pet 3:9, “… not wishing for any of the elect to perish…” or Rom.1:16 “everyone of the elect who believes… And so forth.
They wouldn’t need all these gyrations if they just took the Bible for what it says.
7 comments:
Glenn you say so many great things. I”m not sure where your anti-Calvinism bent comes from, and I doubt anything I might say would change that. I did have to give up following Lighthouse Trails Research, for their extremely negative tone of their articles about it. Maybe you were confronted with overt Calvinist arguing against Arminianism personally, or view the negative things that the modern so called “new-Calvinist“ pastors support which are leading the church astray into the culture (btw they rarely if ever practice a true Calvinism), or your Concerns are echos of your assembly teachings or just your own reasoned understanding of scripture. I am pretty sure you do enjoy the old Hymn “Amazing Grace”.....
Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.
John Newton once wrote an interesting piece, Titled “ More Than A Calvinist”
http://www.reformedreader.org/mtc.htm
It’s good reading for those in either camp.
But then who would want to listen to a white European man, and he was probably not so “woke”.
Btw, if you get this far and are still with me, at some point consider S Lewis Johnson’s sermons on the book of John, or read Old John Gill’s commentary on verses like those you referenced, and one of my favorites...
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
The good news is.... John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Anyway my two cents worth, you can judge, I think there are better things to pipe about, so to speak.
High Sierra Flyfisherman,
I learned my theology straight from the Bible, and if you read some of the articles under the “About Me” label you will see my journey. I was led to the faith by Navigators while I was in the Army. I didn’t have a commentary of any sort until almost a decade later. I read the Bible cover to cover at least twice a year before attending any church.
When I started learning Calvinist stuff I couldn’t figure out where they came from, because it certainly wasn’t in Scripture without twisting it to say what it doesn’t. I’ve heard and read the Calvinist arguments ad infinitum and ad nauseam and still don’t understand how this belief came about (actually it is warmed over Augustinianism).
Have you looked at my article, “I Am Not A Calvinist”?
https://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2013/02/i-am-not-calvinist.html
Your “proof texts” from John are all well and good, but you neglect to include John 12:32 where Jesus says he will draw ALL men unto himself. I know, Calvinists have explained that Jesus mean “all KINDS of men”…, the old add the extra words trick. And yes, I read the counter argument as you will find at “GraceOnlineLibrary.” I don’t buy it because then the whole of the NT would be virtually worthless. You could never say to anyone that God loves them because if they aren’t the “elect” it wouldn’t be true.
I really think Calvinism is a horrid ideology because you can never be SURE that you are one of the elect.
But, as I have so often stated, I love Calvinist teachers (not the neo-calvinist liberals like Mark Driscoll and Tim Keller, e.g.) and find them to be very fundamental. I attend a PCA church and just “tiptoe through the TULIPs.” I find Calvinists to be some of the best apologists and can never understand why they don’t apply their apologetics to their own system!
HSF:
I forgot something. One of the most irritating things to me from Calvinists is the constant attack that if I am not a Calvinism I am therefore an Arminian. It is not an either/or deal! I don't agree with the Arminian position either!
With as much respect and humility I can muster, I think this is one of those Biblical concepts that must be held in tension with what the rest of the scriptures say.
The Westminster Confession of Faith qualifies as a wonderful synopsis of Christian belief and practice yet it is not the Inspired Word.
That quote is based from Heb 11:6, And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Counter that with Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. This is the NT repeat of Psa 14:2-3 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.
So which is it? Do we seek after God, or are we all enemies and hostile? The scriptures I listed say both.
One thing to remember is to look at the reason why the book of Hebrews was written. It was written to a group of Jewish believers that were undergoing persecution and were thinking renouncing their Christian faith in order to take a breather from the persecution. The plan was to return to Christianity after the persecution eased off. See Heb 6:4-6 regarding the writer's warning against this. They were already believers and the writer is telling them to stay true to the faith.
Eph 2:1-10 tells us that we were dead in sin and trespasses BUT GOD made us alive in Christ.
I would suggest that the phrase of 'those that seek after God' can be safely applied to believers but not so the unbelievers. Willing to be corrected if scripture proves me wrong.
BTW, I identify as a 2/5ths Calvinist.
Hi Papa Goose,
First, I've always taken that "on one seeks God" verse as hyperbole, especially when you read verses like Acts 17:30 where God commands everyone to repent, but if they are unable on their own to do so, then how can God command it? There are many verses where God says IF you seek him he will be found, but how can that be if God withholds the ability to seek? Examples:
Deut. 4:29 - "But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him,
if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul."
1 Chron. 16:11 – “seek his face”
1 Chron. 28:9 - “If you seek Him, He will be found by you”
2 Chron. 15:2 – “If you seek him…” Many more in 2 Chron.
Ps. 9:10 – “those who seek you”
Ps. 22:26 – “they who seek the Lord”
Ps. 34:10 – “those who seek the Lord”
Ps. 40:16 – “all who seek you”
Ps. 69:6 – “may those who seek you”
Ps. 119:10 – “I seek you with all my heart”
Is. 55:6 - “Seek the Lord while He may be found”
Jer. 29:13 - "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me
with all your heart."
Hos. 10:12 – “it is time to seek the Lord”
Zeph. 2:3 - “Seek the Lord”
Acts 17:27 - “so that they should seek the Lord”
2 Cor. 3:12-18 - “Whoever turns to the Lord”
Heb. 11:6 - “He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him”
Yet you say these passages are only talking about believers! If that is so, then the entire Bible is nothing but lies deceiving people to think they can choose to come to God but God has already selected who he'll permit the ability to seek him.
Eph 2:1-10 is 100% correct for those who chose to place their faith in Christ.
I've never had any problem with understanding the "tension" in Scripture. God has given everyone on earth the knowledge about Him (Ps. 19:1; Rom. 1:19-20; Job 12:7-8; Acts 14:17; Acts 17:24-28), and the individual is expected to have the ability to understand God (Jer. 9:24). God knew man would sin and therefore predestined a way of salvation through Christ. He predestined that those who would accept Christ by faith would be the elect. He predestined through His foreknowledge, not fore-ordination. And that is where Calvinists go astray - confusing foreknowledge and fore-ordination. They claim that God cannot foreknow what He didn’t fore-ordain, which actually limits God. God is outside of time and sees the end from the beginning, so he KNOWS who will choose to believe rather than forcing people of His choice to believe. God sovereignly gave man the free will to accept or reject Him - and that is what the Bible shows.
It is odd to me Glen, growing up in the church, then becoming a born again believer in the year of 1995. Never was Arminianism nor Calvinism mentioned in any of the teachings in order to be saved. In fact, I had never heard of Calvin until after my soul was born again and the Holy Spirit brought such a zest of life to me in loving Jesus and His Word, and since I enjoy history, began to do more research in historical Christianity.
I do not believe that one must follow another human being, past, present, or future, in order to be saved by our LORD, for that is the spirit of any age; following a man or woman, or a movement, in order for salvation to be freely given.
Only Jesus Christ has humbly offered His free Gift to us, and no other name can save; only His Name.
Jesus.
And if I am to err, I will joyously err on the Name of Jesus, than to err on the name of another human being/sinner.
Amen.
Martha
I've often felt that those verses that suggest the Calvinist point of view were assuming something that isn't necessarily meant to be inferred. For instance, I don't see why one can't be drawn by a sound explanation of the faith by even an atheist...assuming the atheist is honest in his explanation. One hears a sermon, a point of view by another in a discussion or simply decides with nothing else to do but to pick up the only book in the room...a bible...and then is drawn to what it says, and by doing so chooses to believe due to being unable to overcome the logic, reason and glad tidings found therein. That is, must one have a revelation to insist that one is drawn or called? I don't see why that would be the case. If I speak to someone who then as a result becomes a Christian, did I call that person or did Christ call that person through me? or through a reading of Scripture? or through a sermon? or through any other means of which one might imagine?
Then there's the issue of free will and God's sovereignty. I don't understand why it necessarily follows that if God gives us total free will to choose Him or not that somehow He's given up or abdicated His sovereignty over us...as if He couldn't blink the entire universe out of existence in an instant if He so chose. I have a particular blogger who I like very much, but while he claims he's not a Calvinist, he believes these concepts to be accurate representations of what Scripture says on these topics. I still remain less than convinced.
And yeah...am I supposed to just cross my fingers that I'm among the elect, or can I have confidence that my faith...my "choice" to believe...puts me among them? I think it's the latter.
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