We who preach the gospel must not think of ourselves as public relations agents sent to establish good will between Christ and the world. We must not imagine ourselves commissioned to make Christ acceptable to big business, the press, the world of sports or modern education. We are not diplomats but prophets, and our message is not a compromise but an ultimatum. A.W. Tozer

Friday, May 2, 2008

Beth Moore Revisited

Due to various comments I have received on my previous articles about Beth Moore, I am posting this article demonstrating some of Beth’s teachings and why they are problematic. I do not want to get into a continual dialog about Moore on this blog - that is not its purpose. The purpose of this blog is to alert believers to false teachers and false teachings affecting the Church - this is the ministry of a watchman. It is up to the individual to determine what to do with the warnings. If you are concerned by what I report, feel free to e-mail me at the address on my profile and I will provide more details as necessary.

Due to the nature of this post, it will be the longest one I’ve done, so hang in there until the end if you truly are interested in why I say Beth is in error. I will be referring to Beth Moore’s DVD series, “Believing God,” because I personally viewed all 10 hours. However, many other apologetics ministries have reviewed more of her stuff and the problems I found in this series are repeated and enlarged upon in her other materials.

Firstly, Beth Moore makes many claims of direct revelation from God. There is no evidence that God has given anyone direct revelation since the New Testament. In fact, Hebrews 1 says that God now has spoken to us through His Son. Here are some examples from Beth where she claims direct revelation:

1. “One of the things God wants to do throughout this nine weeks we’re going to spend together is empower our prayer life.” How does she know that God wants to do this? (Session 1)

2. “What God began to say to me about five years ago, and I’m telling you it sent me on such a trek with Him, that my head is still whirling over it. He began to say to me, ‘I’m gonna tell you something right now, Beth, and boy you write this one down, and you say it as often as I give you utterance to say it: My Bride is paralyzed by unbelief. My Bride is paralyzed by unbelief.’ And He said, ‘Startin’ with you.’” God says, “and boy you write this one down”????? I find it interesting that God talks so “down to earth.” Is the Church really paralyzed by unbelief? Maybe I’m just a cynic, but I can’t believe this conversation took place. (Session 1)

3. “And this came as a direct revelation of the Spirit because this would never have come to me. I know God spoke this over me as He began turning through a concordance in my mind and I started thinking about one Scripture after another.” Notice she even says, “direct revelation.” (Session 3)

4. A de facto revelation of God is this claim: “God is desiring for His church to have a revival of true faith in who He is and what He can do and what He desires to do in our generation.” How does she know this?  (Session 3)

5. Moore has another special revelation: “Don’t buy the press that they [those in leadership positions] have it all together. If they did, God wouldn’t even be using them. Because I’m going to tell you, He wants people in process. They’ve got a fresh word going on in their lives. When they’ve got it all together, He’ll take them home.” Now, from where does she get this idea? Where is the Scriptural justification for this claim? (Session 5)

6. Another de facto revelation: “God is doing something huge in the church today, and I don’t want us to miss it.” If God is really doing something in the church, are Christians going to miss it?  (Session 5)

7. Moore has a conversation with God which sets her up as an authority when she teaches: “You know what He told me not too long ago? I told you when I first began this whole concept, He first started teaching it to me about five years ago, and He said these words to me: ‘Baby, you have not even begun to believe Me. You haven’t even begun!’ You know what He said just a few days ago? ‘Honey, I just want you to know we’re just beginning.’ Oh, glory! That meant I had begun. Hallelujah! But He was telling me, ‘When this ends, we ain’t done with this. Honey, this is what we do for the rest of your life.’ And He said those words to me over and over again: ‘Believe Me. Believe Me. And I hope it’s starting to ring in your ears, over and over again, Believe Me.’”  (Session 6)

8. “I don’t know how I even learned this except that God just taught it to me Himself.” So now God has been personally teaching her! (Session 7)

9. Moore made the claim that “God directed” her to do the “Believing God” study.  (Session 9)

So there you have the direct revelations from God to Beth on the DVD series I watched. What about her use of Scripture? In my February 16th article I gave two blatant examples of error and I will not repeat them here. So let’s look at a few more from this series:

1. In session two, Moore’s understanding of Matthew 16:18 is somewhat different than that of any other commentator I have read. She states that when Jesus is saying this, he is pointing first to Peter and then to Himself. He calls Peter a stone as he points to him, then He points to Himself when he says, “On this rock I will build my church.” So this makes Jesus the rock of the conversation (whereas I was always under the impression that the rock was Peter’s confession - which Moore does say it may also be), and then Peter is “a chip off the block.” Yes, that’s how she says it: Peter is “a chip off the block,” the block he’s chipped off of being Jesus. And that is why Jesus gives Peter special authority. However, in session four she says that in Matt. 16:18 the “rock” is indeed the testimony of Peter. My thought was, “Huh?” Remember, in session two she said that may be a part of it.

2. Matthew 17:19-20. “For some reason, ordained by God alone, He tells us that when we want something to move, we are to tell it to. We are to open our mouths and say to the mountain, ‘Move it! You are in my way!’” However, this passage is about what faith can do. It is not about the need to speak to mountains or anything else. Moore’s claims in this area are much the same as the Word of Faith teaching when she says that because God spoke creation into existence with “omnipotent words,” we can speak things into happening with our “potent words.”  (Session 6)

3. 2 Corinthians 4:2. “Renouncing requires speaking.” We must “verbally renounce all attachments to it [sin].” Again, this passage is about renouncing things no matter what method is used; it is not about speaking audibly.  (Session 6)

4. 2 Corinthians 4:13ff is also used to prove that we must speak the words because the author says, “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” But the context is about why he spoke what he did, not that speaking was required to prove anything.  (Session 6)

5. 2 Corinthians 4:8. Moore says the word “crushed” here (NIV) means “unable to express yourself, unable to speak out.” She then says Satan was preventing Paul from speaking out, and in the same way he will prevent us from speaking out. KJV says “distressed.” While a possible meaning of the word may be “restrained from talking” (not being a Greek scholar I don’t know, and Strong’s gives a meaning of the word as “distressed”), I’d say the context in this passage does not mean Paul was prevented from speaking. To continue with her unbiblical claims, Moore says, “Thinking is not exercising biblical authority. Satan can’t read minds. He is only intimidated if it comes from the mouth.” (I agree that Satan can’t read minds, but, again, do we intimidate him?) She goes on to say, “Perhaps more than anything else, Satan wants to hinder us from ever learning how to use our mouths. Because he knows once we draw the sword of the Spirit, and it starts coming out of our mouths, he has had it.” Again I must ask, is the mute then powerless against Satan?
(Session 6)

6. Beth discusses Joshua 4, and then she makes comparisons to Genesis 15 because there are Hebrew words that are used in both places, which to her was a very big deal. With Genesis 15 the pieces of animals were parted, while in Joshua 4 the Jordan was parted. In Genesis 15 God passed between the pieces making a covenant, while in Joshua 4 the ark of the covenant passed through the Jordan. Moore continues to build this whole idea into her belief that in Joshua God was “having a memorial moment” reconfirming to Israel and to Himself the covenant He made with Abram; that the crossing of the Jordan was intentionally symbolic of the covenant with Abram, and this is proven by the use of the same Hebrew words in both places. Then she makes the application: “Through the concepts in Joshua 4, God seems to say, ‘Because I have cut covenant with you, I will also cut a path through any obstacle that stands between you and the fulfillment of My covenant promises.’” She then finishes by saying, “Oh I believe that’s what He’s saying.” Hmmmmmmm.  (Session 7)

7. Beth discusses Joshua 5, and she says “circumcision was reinstated.” This would mean it had been temporarily set aside, but the Scripture doesn’t say that. It only tells us the ritual was not performed, that they had failed to do it. When they were circumcised, Moore says, “God cut away the sign of their unbelief, and they wore the mark of their new beginning.” The text doesn’t say the lack of circumcision was a sign of unbelief, it just says it wasn’t done in the wilderness wanderings. Beth adds her own ideas to Scripture.  (Session 8)

Now I will demonstrate some areas in this DVD series where Beth was aberrational in what she taught:

1. Moore says God’s use of her is “scandalous.” “He has risked His reputation and His name over a pit dweller like me.” If this is her attempt at humility, I think she has done more to denigrate God. Does God ever risk His reputation? Does God ever “risk” anything? (Session 3)

2. One concern I have that others tend to dismiss is the idea that we pray to God and thank Him as if it has already happened the way we pray, and it will then be certain of happening. This sort of binds God to our prayers; He is obligated to respond in the manner in which we ask. Moore says, “And you just start thanking Him over and over again when you’re asking, thanking Him in advance, ‘God, thank you, you’re going to work a miracle here, you’re going to work a miracle.” What if God doesn’t want to work a miracle? What if God has other ideas and the answer to your prayer is “no” because He knows what would be best?  (Session 3)

3. “This is the real thing, about living the rest of our lives intimidating the kingdom of darkness and making the devil finally tuck his tail and run. It is time for the body of Christ to stand up and become his worst nightmare. When are you going to start making him sorry that he messed with you? That’s what I want to know. When? When do we decide we’re going to make him sorry that he ever messed with us? That he ever messed with somebody you love? When does that happen? Tonight’s lesson is about becoming armed and dangerous to the kingdom of darkness.” Okay, so where in Scripture does it say we are to “become [Satan’s] worst nightmare”? This is certainly shades of a Frank Perretti novel and Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare. Where does Scripture say we ever intimidate the kingdom of darkness? What about Colossians 1:13 where it says Christ delivered us from the “power of darkness” (KJV) or the “dominion of darkness” (NIV)?  (Session 6)

4. “We have a need to pray and we’re struck dumb - that is the enemy not wanting words spoken. Just open your mouth and say ‘Jesus’ - one word - ‘Jesus,’ … and it sends Satan away. He’s just a bluff.” Well, what if we pray silently? What about a mute praying? And where in the Bible does it tell us if we say “Jesus” Satan will suddenly leave us alone?  (Session 6)

5. Moore opens the 7th session with: “The Holy Spirit is just all over us in this place… And we are praying for a miracle of God, because I am praying that same portion of the Spirit [referring to an earlier “worship and praise” session] is pouring out on your sweet little head right where you are. Because sometimes there is just nothing like that.” Again I have to ask, how does she know the Holy Spirit is “all over us” in that auditorium? Do we not have the Spirit indwelling us anyway? She then tells the audience, “God delights in your company.” Has she received a revelation from God that this is so?

How about her flippant and arrogant attitude towards God? After getting emotionally worked up over what she is saying, Moore then says, “I tell you what, Lord, if you don’t calm me down, I’m coming home!” Isn’t it rather presumptuous to be talking to God this way?  (Session 6)

Beth Moore’s teachings in this series brings to mind what the Scripture says about people gathering around themselves a great number of teachers who say what their itching ears want to hear rather than those who teach sound doctrine. (I also think her self-acknowledged obnoxiousness and theatrical demeanor, and apparent lack of humility are totally inappropriate for one in this teaching position.)

If this hasn’t been enough evidence of the problem with Beth Moore’s teachings, I can only recommend that you contact Personal Freedom Outreach at www.pfo.org and ask for their articles on Moore.

43 comments:

Marie4thtimemom said...

Yup. This pretty much confirms what I've heard about "Believing God".

You want to talk personal revelation/"prophetic word" junk? Do "Stepping Up". It was even worse. As one who left the charismatic movement, I nearly became physically ill at one point.

I'll check out the other site you linked to, as well.

Thanks.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

I've heard from other people about Beth's various "studies" and I have seen parts of many. Her major problem is her hermeneutics - she does more eisegesis than exegesis. And of course there is her direct revelation from God.

It's good to hear from another discerning Christian.

Glenn

razzledazzle said...

Hello Glenn,
Thank you for the post. I listen to Beth Moore sometimes on her weekly radio show thing, and I haven't heard anything unbiblical through that. God has taught me a whooooole lot through her weekly studies and I am greatful for that.

A couple of things to consider:
I think a lot of times when people say that "God told them" something, they dont always mean a clear audible voice. Ive heard people say that when God lays something on their heart, or when God gives them peace about the prospects of a new situation, or when God speaks through His word.

I do believe that is what she meant some of the times you reference "God revealing something to her". That can, and does happen to me every single day. Every day God speaks to me in one way or another, and I believe one's relationship with God should only be questioned when there is deliberate deviation from scripture. It seems like when youre talking about her "revelations," you are just questioning for the sake of questioning. There is nothing to back up the opposite of what God told her, so I think its best to leave the "revelations" between her and God. However, on the flip side... I do believe that she should present scripture to back up these "revelations" from God as well.

We need to be careful. She is our sister in Christ, and we need to pray for her. Yes it is important to encourage discernment, but in this case Beth Moore does not seem to be promoting the opposite of Christ. The message of the saving blood of Jesus is not comprimised, and she presents the gospel clearly. (from what Ive heard myself).

While exercising discernment, we should be praying for teachers like her, it must be a lot of pressure to have every word spoken analyzed and in some cases (not in your case) twisted to reveal another agenda. An agenda to turn against one another and slander those who dont claim perfection, but have answered their call to teach.

We need to remember we are one body. And we are facing spiritual battles every single day. We have got to pray for each other, not turn our backs. Especially those who we know have influence over many others in our family.

Have you tried contacting her? lovingly and privitely presenting her with your concerns? This is what the Bible instructs us to do.

Maybe she can shed some light on what she meant by some of the things you brought up. Maybe shes not as bad as you may think.

Shes our family. Let's start acting like family.

In His love, (and sorry so long!!)

-Jessica

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Jessica,

Thanks for your thoughts about Beth Moore. I think often people have favorite teachers because they speak to their hearts on many issues, so they tend to not be objective when analyzing their teachings. I believe this is a major problem with followers of Beth Moore. Let me address some of your concerns:

I understand what you mean about how people talk about God "telling" them things. While Beth may often be speaking as you suggest, she also often implicitly - if not explicitly - claims audible revelations. In this particular posting, please look again at the items listed as her claims to direct revelation, especially items 2, 3, 4, 8, and 9,
let alone the de facto claims of revelations.

JESSICA>There is nothing to back up the opposite of what God told her, so I think its best to leave the "revelations" between her and God.

GLENN: There is much to back up an opposing viewpoint against her so-called revelations. Where do you find biblically that the church will ever be "paralyzed by unbelief" as God is supposed to have said? Where in Scripture will you ever find a HOLY God telling anyone to "have a blast" with Jesus? And the teaching she got from her so-called revelation is unbiblical. And can anyone truly imagine God telling anyone, "Honey, I just want you to know we're just beginning." As for her claim that God has taught her personally, if this was so she would have no error in any of her teaching. We are told in the Bible to test everything that is said, no to "leave the 'revelations' between her and God."

JESSICA>However, on the flip side... I do believe that she should present scripture to back up these "revelations" from God as well.

GLENN: My point exactly!

JESSICA>We need to be careful. She is our sister in Christ, and we need to pray for her.

GLENN: I agree 100%.

JESSICA>Yes it is important to encourage discernment, but in this case Beth Moore does not seem to be promoting the opposite of Christ. The message of the saving blood of Jesus is not comprimised, and she presents the gospel clearly. (from what Ive heard myself).

GLENN: If by "promoting the opposite of Christ" you mean teaching a false gospel, then no. But one can teach the gospel and yet still have grievous error in their teachings that can easily mislead undiscerning people. However, she does indeed "promote the opposite of Christ" when she twists Scripture beyond the proper meaning or even when she adds to the Word as in the examples I gave.

JESSICA>While exercising discernment, we should be praying for teachers like her, it must be a lot of pressure to have every word spoken analyzed and in some cases (not in your case) twisted to reveal another agenda.

GLENN: Again, I agree.

JESSICA>An agenda to turn against one another and slander those who dont claim perfection, but have answered their call to teach.

GLENN: If God truly called Beth to teach, then wouldn't he have equipped her to rightly divide the Word? Or perhaps she was called to teach in her original ministry but stepped out beyond it on her own? Or was she perhaps called to teach and abused the calling? I just am not going to be so quick to say she was called of God to teach when so much of what she teaches is in error.

JESSICA>We need to remember we are one body. And we are facing spiritual battles every single day. We have got to pray for each other, not turn our backs. Especially those who we know have influence over many others in our family.

GLENN: We also called to expose false teachings, and if the individual refuses to be corrected we should no longer listen to that teacher.

JESSICA>Have you tried contacting her? lovingly and privitely presenting her with your concerns? This is what the Bible instructs us to do.

GLENN: No, the Bible calls for me to go to someone privately if they have sinned against me. If someone is teaching publicly then their teachings are to be exposed publicly. Many have indeed approached her with problems and she doesn't seem to heed their rebuke.

JESSICA>Maybe she can shed some light on what she meant by some of the things you brought up. Maybe shes not as bad as you may think.

GLENN: I have read much about Beth's teachings and she is indeed as bad a teacher as I have stated here. I am currently going over her "Breaking Free" series and will give a report on that when I've finished. However, many ministries have exposed her false teachings, so it isn't just my opinion alone.

JESSICA>Shes our family. Let's start acting like family.

GLENN: When a family member misrepresents the family and the family's parental teachings, then the family is obligated to call that member to task, and to expose that member as falsely representing that family. This is the position we are in with Beth. Have you looked at my two previous posts and the information provided there?

I have stated plainly that not everything taught by Beth Moore is in error. However, her error, in my opinion, is such that she should not be trusted nor recommended as a Bible teacher. There are too many solid women teachers that we shouldn't be wading through the minefield of Beth Moore.

JESSICA>In His love, (and sorry so long!!)

GLENN: That’s just fine! :oD

In His Service,
Glenn

razzledazzle said...

Hi Glenn,

Yeah I read all of your entries on Beth Moore before responding, and I dont disagree with you. I heard that her teachings werent Biblical but your site is the first one I saw with actual examples of how her teachings stray a bit. So thats great! Im really glad for that. Like I said, the only experience Ive had with Beth Moore are her weekly teachings to that group of women. I am usually not too keen on long studies and dvd series. I also just started Bible college, so I actually know what you mean by her hermeneutics being off, and I am now seeing how often MANY teachers do this! its amazing, really.

I also wanted to clarify that I am not saying that you are wrong at all for encouraging discernment! I think that the church is so gullible, because a lot of people are too lazy or busy to look in the Word for themselves, and just take the pastors word for it! Its a huge problem that leads to things like Christians participating in Oprah's new age webcast classes.

I just dont think its really fair to present such pointed concerns regarding her "arrogance" and such, without first addressing her with those concerns. Maybe thats just me though. I personally, always email the person directly first. And its up to them to respond. Public teaching allowing for public criticism is true though. I think of Paul... but even then he wrote letters to the church, so i dont really know. Its only fair to not only trust that others have brought up concerns, but to personally confront them with our own voice of concern as well.

As far as her not taking criticism well, I have seen instances where she publically addresses the viewers of her website regarding controversy, and usually is very apologetic for the misunderstanding. She also clarifies these things.

Following someone blindly is always dangerous, but so is hardening our hearts toward those individuals. There is a fine line we need to be careful not to cross. Paul addressed concerns with love.

Also, thank you for your comment on my blog! I am going to respond to it when I have more time! You gave me a lot of great things to think about, and I appreciate that!

Ill be talking to you soon!

In Him,
Jessica

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi again, Jessica,

I understand your concerns. Let me first address the idea of “arrogance,” which, in my opinion, is the attitude presented in the DVD I watched. When someone makes sweeping claims about how special they are to God such that God talks to them personally, and then makes the statement to God, “Lord, if you don’t calm me down, I’m coming home!” I don’t see how anyone can say that is not arrogant. Can you imagine even Paul saying that to God? It is arrogant and presumptuous to speak to a holy God in that manner. There was much on that DVD series where she was behaving and speaking in a very arrogant and self-acknowledged obnoxious manner.

So if I were to e-mail Beth Moore saying that I found her behavior on that DVD series to be arrogant, do you really think she’d care? As I said, on the DVD series she actually virtually brags about her obnoxiousness (which is a reason I don’t understand why ANYONE would want to watch her) as well as admitting she is theatrical. Besides, I only gave that as an example of a poor character trait which should raise eyebrows. My primary focus was on her false teachings, which are many. There are many apologetics sites on the web that raise similar concerns.

Beth may well apologize, etc for concerns brought to her, but I can cite one example where she does not heed instruction. A few years back the Christian Research Institute talked with Beth about her teachings on spiritual warfare and how they were unbiblical. Beth has never changed her teachings and, from what I can tell, has only gone farther into the aberrational spiritual warfare model.

I do not have a “hard heart” towards Beth; I feel sorry for her and what she has suffered in the past. But I still must expose her false teachings. Too many people are listening to her with absolutely no discernment and accepting everything she says as from God. And THAT is dangerous.

I don’t have the connections or the perceived authority to take my concerns to such false teachers. I used to do it sometimes but always got the same response: “what is your training to make you such an authority?” or “Are you a Greek or Hebrew scholar,” and other responses of that nature. I have also been told in the past that the individual has an entire staff that ensures they are biblically sound. So I gave up. I have no recognized credentials that I can use to appeal to in support of my charges. So instead I expose their teachings comparing them to God’s Word and if anyone wants to ignore me, fine; and if I can get people to be more discerning that’s even better.

May you be blessed in your studies at Bible college!

Glenn

Anonymous said...

Mr. Chatfield,

I found your site while searching for articles about Beth Moore and false teaching. Let me start by saying I prayed that God would give me the right heart and motives before I wrote this post, and I hope that he will let it be read and received in the same fashion.

I come from a family of Christians and was raised in the Bible church. My family and I now attend a Bible church and I feel safe in saying that, while I have not studied the scriptures NEARLY enough to teach or defend like a Biblical scholar, I have a pretty good radar for teaching that veers from solid grounding in Scripture. I am particularly wary of teachers who use phrases like "what this means" or "God has told us" without lots of scripture to back it up.

I had very negative preconceived notions of Beth Moore based upon comments and observations made by family members who had attended - or even led - Moore bible studies. I was disturbed by her associations with people like Joel Osteen, who I consider, at BEST, very misled in his teachings. On a personal note, I grew up in Dallas and I found her appearance and manner to be representative of the worst aspects of Texas female role-model I could imagine. When my church announced the current women's bible study would be Moore's "A Woman's Heart - God's Dwelling Place", I was concerned and disappointed. I began to attend the DVD-led study with a VERY critical and judgmental heart. We are now in week 7 of the study and, despite my worst fears, I have found her teaching to be insightful, inspiring and, with one or two minor exceptions, Biblically sound. In fact, if there is a complaint from attendees it is that we must continually flip through our Bibles to read the verses she uses to support her statements.

I have been told by people whose judgment I trust that this study is probably her best. I have not read/watched the studies to which you refer in your posts. I have to say, however, that I was bothered by what appear to be references to a more personal dislike of her mannerisms and style than her doctrine. When you use the word "obnoxious" to describe her manner onscreen and then compare much more low-key, undemonstrative women teachers as worthy of emulation, it seems to indicate that is her personality - more than her teaching - that offends you.

Don't get me wrong! I have, in my life, visited churches that were FAR too focused on emotional and momentary "feel-good" teachings led by charismatic, usually attractive, and very animated teachers who relied on whipping the audience into a frenzy of "God fever" that lasted no longer than it took for the adrenaline levels to die down. I personally object to the departure from reverence in worship that has become a part of many church services and can lead to an emphasis on feeling rather than worshiping or learning. However, with a few exceptions, I do not feel that Beth Moore is working to tap into that when she relates her informal "discussions" with God. I do not have access to the DVD broadcasts from this study to give a specific example, but on the LifeWay.com site there is a clip from her study "When Godly People Do UnGodly Things" and at about 2 minutes, she refers to one of her 'conversations with God' where she says (I am paraphrasing a little) "He said - I'm just talking about in my heart, I'm not talking about hearing a voice out loud - I felt like He said to me..." In my experience with the study I am watching, this is how she refers to most of her talks with God. Yes, they are informal and use colloquial and modern expressions. They are often emotional and unstructured. But I don't feel she is claiming, like Joseph Smith, to have been given the kind of revelations that need to replace or rewrite scriptures. You call her attitude "flippant, arrogant and presumptuous" when she says "God, if you don't calm me down, I'm coming home." To light-heartedly say that you are so excited about God's word you might have a heart attack and die - which I believe was her intent - seems a little silly, but not unGodly.

There were observations you made about her teaching that seemed grounded in genuine concern about re-interpreting the Word of God. The example of the disciple's topic of conversation while Jesus was on the mountain is one. If she stated this with ANY authority, and not just as an idle speculation about what they MIGHT have been discussing, then she was entirely out of line. However, when you begin to question statements about the Holy Spirit being "all over this place" (Matthew 18:20) or that God is delighted in a gathering of believers worshiping and studying His Word, I think you are judging her semantics and not her message.

We as Christians are in such desperate need of discernment in teaching. There are truly MANY popular teachers out there who are spouting absolute heresy and untruth. The fact is that, in particular with women, Beth Moore's teaching style is effective, entertaining and relevant. I would LOVE to have objective and well-supported critiques of her doctrine and teaching, but I am put off by what seems more like a personality attack.

Hope I didn't make this so long it can't be posted/read! I am not accustomed to this kind of forum for my comments. Thanks for your research and time on these topics.

Angie

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi Angie,

I haven't found any reviews or done any of my own on the series you mention, but reviews by other apologetics sites of other Beth Moore studies continuously find the same problems I found, including her poor hermeneutics as I demonstrate in my review of her "Believing God" series. I don't think it is having a "critical and judgmental heart" to review teachings with caution based on others' reports. I think that is a wise position to take.

My mention of Moore being "obnoxious" isn't just a matter of personal taste; many, many women have told me the same thing. But on that DVD series I reviewed Beth actually says she is "obnoxious." If she says that herself, who am I to argue? I'm not referring to emotional behavior, rather it is obnoxious behavior. And from her other behaviors and claims it appears that she is quite prideful and that leads to the obnoxious behavior.

LifeWay may very well make the claims that Beth Moore does not actually mean God gives her direct revelation, and her representative Dale McCleskey told me the same thing when I contacted her ministry about her claims of revelation. However, one can disavow such claims all they want, but it you listen to her and look at my article where I cite her directly, she is indeed making claims of revelation from God - direct, audible revelation. This is indeed similar to the claims of Joseph Smith and is something that should not be tolerated.

When you couple all the claims of direct revelation with her comment of telling God that He had better calm her down or she will be coming home, I can't see how this can be anything but flippant, arrogant and presumptuous. I have had several people tell me they were very offended just by that statement.

You believe I am judging semantics over message, but semantics are very crucial in theology. That's why we always have to define our terms when dealing with the cults. For Beth to make claims of KNOWING that "the Holy Spirit is all over this place," or that God "is delighted," etc, she is making a de facto claim of revelation, that is, knowing the mind of God. As for the quote about the Holy Spirit, that is charismatic silliness - the Spirit indwells each believer and is not "all over" an auditorium. If these comments were Beth's only problem I'd sluff them off, but when coupled with many, many other problems such as noted, then it goes directly to her bad teaching.

I am not interested in any "personality" attacks on Beth because that is not my ministry. (There are actually some good teachers whose personality I just don't like.) I attack/expose false teaching. Beth may very well be a nice person; I don't know her. And whether her teaching is effective depends on how far she strays from the Word. Entertaining, maybe, but I don't think that is the purpose of God's Word. In fact I think we have fallen too much into entertainment-oriented theology to the point we water it down just to make us all feel good.

Lastly, I think my critique was indeed "objective and well-supported". If you check with Personal Freedom Outreach at www.pfo.org, they have done two feature articles in their Journal about Moore's bad teachings. They are also about to publish their next journal with another feature article. I think you will find them very objective and well-documented. This ministry is a top-notch apologetics ministry which I highly recommend.

Thank you for your time. I hope the study you are doing is indeed Beth's best!

In His Service
Glenn

Marti said...

I am trying to find and objective opinion on Beth Moore, and I found your post to be demeaning and sarcastic...not at all objective. If nothing else, Moore is a true lover of God and His Word. If she has it wrong, she deserves to be critiqued with a manner of respect, don't you think?

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi Marti,

I guess I would ask you what was NOT objective about my review? Could you please identify where I said anything "demeaning" about Beth Moore? Would you identify where I did not respectfully critique her?

I do not doubt that Moore loves God and His Word; my complaint is her misuse of the Word, as well as propagating misundertanding of the Word. I refuse to respect anyone's teachings if they have to claim direct revelation from God to give themselves authority, which Moore does time and again.

I agree that Moore has some very good teachings, but the errors included make her teachings like cyanide-laced water.

I suggest you check www.pfo.org and order their 3 journals with articles about Moore's teachings and you will find some very objective analysis.

In my experience, it is those who support Moore who refuse to be objective about her teachings. As I have said, we don't let the cults get away with the things Christians let Moore get by with.

Anonymous said...

i have done 2 (in the middle of a 3rd) studies written by beth and i actually went looking for a negative article on her as some friends of mine believe she is in serious error.

i will first say that i am not a "beth moore" groupie. the studies i have done, i have done on my own as i do not like to sit in a room full of women that tend to dwell on the few "emotional" questions that are posed. in fact, i do not even answer those questions. i can't say that all bm study groups are like that ~ just the groups that i started with.

second, i don't believe what i believe because of beth moore. i use her studies strictly as a tool to dig deeper into the word on a specific subject (such as david in "a heart like his"). i appreciate the offering of the original text as she often shares original hebrew and greek words accordingly.

sadly, there are many women who have been hurt (in similar ways as beth has been hurt) that flock to her because they feel a sense of camaraderie. when a person, whether it be a female OR male has any kind of "power" over someone, it is dangerous.

i can't imagine the time that was spent researching all of these things people have against beth moore (or anyone else "teaching error"). i appreciate the effort if it was to strengthen ones own relationship with Christ. we all have to remember though, the most important relationship with Christ is our OWN relationship.

look at john 21: 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, "Lord, what about him?" 22Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."

don't worry about beth moore.

shalom,
L a

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi anonymous 11/2/09:

You say you like Beth Moore studies to help you dig deeper into the Word; what I have discovered from her studies is often that "deeper" dig is false teachings, and twisting of Scripture, so you would do well studying teachings by a more solid teacher.

As time spent researching her and other false teachers, it is not a matter of strengthing one's own relationship, rather it is a matter of exposing error to protect the flock of Christ. Scripture calls on us to expose error, and the NT includes a lot of criticism against false teachers. If we don't study the Mormon church to be able to warn others that the LDS is not Christian, then think how many more people will be lost in that deception! A false teacher is a false teacher and people need to be warned against them so they won't be falsely led.

Your misuse of John 21:21 is an example of the type of poor hermeneutics practiced by those like Beth Moore who make Scripture say what they want it to say. Jesus was making a point about John's use by the Lord not being Peter's affair. That has nothing to do with exposing false teachings. This is why we need people to learn to read the Bible for what it says and not bring in their own agendas.

Lopsided Halo said...

Maybe you should be spending more time on your relationship with God instead of cutting down and criticizing the relationship that others like Beth have with God.

I LOVE Beth Moore and she is an amazing woman for the kingdom of God. She NEVER claims to be perfect and ALWAYS encourages her listeners to not take what she says as the gospel truth....but to dig into the word themselves and find what God wants to teach them through particular passages. God has messages for all of us...that is why his "word" has two meanings in greek....rhema and logos. Rhema is the personal message of scripture and what it means to you and the logos is the written word.

Who are you to criticize what God is saying to someone else? God can do whatever He wants and speak to whoever he wants.

I LOVE Beth Moore and have found her teachings to inspire to deepen my own relationship with Christ by studying HIS word for myself.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Well, hello Lopsided Halo,

It seems that you are another angry Beth Moore fan who attacks me as a person rather than address the issues I raised. I think this is indicative of the total lack of discernment by her followers. Lots of ad hominem attacks against those who dare expose her false teachings.

How do you know how much time I spend in my relationship with God? To paraphrase you, who are you to criticize my relationship to God?

Firstly, I do not “cut down” or criticize Beth Moore’s relationship with God; I criticize her teachings. If she is going to put herself in the public arena with her teachings, then she must be ready to stand the scrutiny of what she teaches.

You call Beth “an amazing woman for the kingdom of God.” What makes her so amazing for the kingdom? Her teachings are often poor, confusing, mixed with pop-psychology, and spiritualizing of God’s Word. Beth may indeed tell people not to take her word as “gospel truth,” but when she continues to claim she receives her teachings as direct revelations from God, do you truly think most of her followers will check the scripture? After all, when you tell people your teachings are from God, why do they need to check the Bible?

Who am I to criticize what Beth is CLAIMING that God is saying to her? I am a Berean - I search the Scriptures to see if what she says is true. Paul tells us to “test all things” (1 Thes 5:21) and to “judge what is said” (1 Cor. 10:15). Perhaps if you would do the same you wouldn’t so zealously defend Beth.

Miss Harrison-Almost-Hagan said...

Glenn,

I have a couple of issues I'd like to address about what I've read in your blog today.

First, you've mentioned several times in different articles that Beth's teaching style is obnoxious. I agree that she is flamboyant and loud and, yes, a bit obnoxious. However, have you considered that this style resonates more with some learners than the stoic, serious style of other teachers? As a school teacher, I'm keenly aware that my style of teaching does not resonate with all of my students. I have classrooms where some kids think I'm the best teacher in the world and other kids can't stand me. Much of that has to do with personality differences and modes of learning. I wonder if Beth's personality just doesn't work for you? Is this something you've considered as you've analyzed the studies?

Have you also considered that her target audience is women and that you may not resonate with her style because you're a man? My husband and I often respond to different teachers differently simply because of our gender differences, not to mention personality traits. I'm sure you agree that there are differences in the way men and women learn. Are you suggesting that because she's obnoxious and flamboyant in her style that she's teaching falsely? Have you ever considered this gender difference? Have you been careful to separate your criticisms of her teaching from your dislike of her personality? I'm interested to hear your thoughts in regards to this.

Second, I would like to address your criticism of Beth's "having a blast" with Jesus. Why are we always assuming that Jesus was only ever serious and that FUN (or, "having a blast") cannot be reverent? Did Jesus never laugh? Was He never joyful and exuberant Himself? Is there something truly UNBIBLICAL about having FUN with God's Word and in getting know Him? Every human being has a craving for fun and laughter. Why would God create us with a sense of humor, an enjoyment of His creation and each other, and then rebuke us for having a blast in getting to know HIM? Wouldn't He want us to have our most fun with Him? Have you maybe misunderstood Beth's use of the words, "having a blast"?

I fully recognize that this idea--having a blast in our relationship with Christ--is taken to many extremes and that "Fun with Jesus" can become unbiblical and dangerous very quickly. I live in the NW, where there are a lot of people trying to turn Jesus into our "homeboy," a pattern I see to be very destructive to true Christianity, but I don't see Beth doing this by saying she's having a blast in her studies. Some of my strongest learning moments have come in the midst of fun and laughter. I LOVE experiencing God's Word in a fresh way and it is a BLAST for me to understand something new. Often times, for me, "having a blast" is simply having a very positive, profoundly memorable experience that shakes up my passivity and gets me enthusiastic again. Why, biblicaly, should that be offensive?

I want to end by saying that I completely appreciate your desire to expose false teaching and to guide Christians towards discernment. I have no argument to present either for or against your criticisms of Beth's teachings. The two matters above, I believe, are simply matters of personality and differing definitions of phrases like "having a blast."

I'm very interested to read your response. Thank you for your time and consideration.

Blessing,

Miss Harrison

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi Miss Harrison,

Thank you for that well-thought-out comment.

I mentioned Beth's obnoxiousness for two reasons; 1) on the DVD series I watched it was overwhelming at times and gave me the impression of one who is very full of herself. The behavior I observed, in my opinion, was totally out of line with teaching the Word of God. 2) Beth makes a deal herself out of how obnoxious she is. This, in my opinion, demonstrates a lack of maturity and, again, an ego problem.

I have taught in many venues and have had students as grade-school, high-school and adults, and would never find any place where that sort of obnoxious behavior would be acceptable. I know people respond to different teaching styles, but there is a limit to how far one can go - or at least there should be.

Beth's obnoxious behavior is not really that much an issue; I am more concerned with her false teachings - twisting of scripture, poor hermeneutics, psychologizing, spiritualizing, etc.

As for Beth's "Having a blast" with Jesus, the context was very much trivializing just who Jesus is. She makes it sound like she's running and playing games in a park, partying. When she trivializes her relationship with Christ in this manner, is it any wonder she claims such direct revelations from God? I think this statement of Beth's goes along with the revelational claims as to having this special relationship.

But the comment about 'having a blast," like her obnoxiousness, are just indicative of the flippant way she handles things sacred.

Lucy said...

Hello Glenn,

I first off want to say thank you for pointing out some of these things. I have been to several of Beth Moore's studies over the past few years and I have done Believing God twice, once at home on the computer and once at a church. I am by no means a Beth Groupie and believe her teachings should be examined the same as anyone else's teachings. I have to agree with one other comment that Daniel was by far the best and it was different than all the rest.
I do have some issues with some of the people that Beth quotes and I have an issue with the Be Still video and her retraction and then retraction of her retraction. SHe is someone I am watching closely.

With all that said I do have some things that I would like to point out to you that you said in your critique of Believing God that I believe need some correction.

I started watching these again last night because of this comment:
3. Moore tells of a conversation she had with God where God said to her, “And I just need you to know I am wild about you. I respect you and I esteem you. And you just blew [blow?] me away to watch you. I esteem your relationship with Jesus. You have a blast with Him in the Word. You have a blast with one another as you believe Him.” So God is “wild” about Beth and He respects and esteems her? And He wants her to have a “blast” with Jesus? Is this really credible?

If you go back and listen to her (session 3 in the first 10 minutes or so) she is talking about her online community and how blown away she is by the women there ministering to one another, she goes on to talk about how she just sobbed on the carpet wondering why GOd is so good to her and she goes on speaking to her audience and says, "I just sobbed in that carpet, sobbed in it cause it is a miracle, and I just need you to know how I am wild about you, I respect you and I esteem you and it just blew me away to watch you, I esteem your relationship with Jesus. You have a blast with Him in the word, you have a blast with one another as you believe Him, O Glory to His name."

So as you see she is not referring to something God said to her, she is speaking to her audience and online community, she was blown away by the women in the online community, she was telling her audience to have a blast with Him in the word.

Lucy said...

Part 2 of Lucy's comment(too many characters):

My second correction is in #1 [1. “One of the things God wants to do throughout this nine weeks we’re going to spend together is empower our prayer life.” How does she know that God wants to do this?]

I think we should back this up and look at what she said before this. "Listen beloved, part of your destiny in Christ according to the New Testament principles is that you would have a powerful prayer life and so would I, we've gotta have Christ's words in us so that we even know the kind of thing he wants us to pray so that his mind and his heart are beginning to operate within us so that when we pray we are praying withing the will of God and I'm telling you one of the things God wants to do throughout this nine weeks were going to spend together is empower our prayer life. No we are not gonna get everything we ask for God knows better than to let that happen to us."

I believe when we look at what she said before and after the statement you quoted it has a different sound to it. I don't have a problem with this statement after looking at the whole context of what she said.

One of the other corrections that I saw should be made was where she was talking about "the chip off the old block". I think you should add the rest of what she said before she made that analogy because that analogy sounds really stupid when it is used aside from the rest of what she said before that. I would have included it here but it was really late and I didn't make notes of it at the time.

I only made it to the 3rd session and your third point, I will say that the second point you made was exactly what she said and what she said seemed kind of exaggerated and stupid. I don't believe that the "true" bride of Christ is paralyzed by unbelief. I think she should have just said in my opinion instead of this is what GOd said to me.

My last thing I want to say right now is, I listened to a wonderful teaching on Critical Issues Commentary with Bob Dewaay the other day called "The Believers call to Judge" it was excellent and very informative on what we should and should not judge. We are to judge the teachings of these people but we are not to judge their motives or personality or things we can't know, we are to judge only what we can know and not what we can't know. SO that being said I think everyone should stick to the judging of teaching and stop judging the appearance, mannerisms and personalty of the teachers because it's just wrong and un-Christlike. Referring to a comment I saw about Beth's eyes, we can't know what spirit she is of by her eyes, we judge her by her teaching period. God is the judge of the rest of her. Whether she calls herself obnoxious or not we aren't to judge that. You know I can say all I want about my own appearance or attitude but I don't want someone else to point it out.

If I continue with the videos and notice anything else I will let you know, I'm just not sure I want to really watch them a third time. Thank you for letting me voice my concerns.

Lucy said...

It's me again, Lucy, could I suggest you look into Wordpress? It's a much better blogger format. Just a suggestion, :).

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi Lucy,

No, I think you need to go back and listen. Personal Freedom Outreach published an article about this in their Journal. They watched the DVD series and found the exact same thing that I did. Context in that scene is that God is talking to Beth. Now if that isn't what she meant, then she needs to clarify it.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi Lucy,
I guess I should have looked at other responses before I made that short one.

I think you are desparately trying to save Beth. I stand by my question - How does Beth know what God wants in relation to HER course, which is full of false teachings? I really don't think God wants women to listen to Beth at all!

As for the comment about Peter being a "chip off the old block," I think I made it quite clear the context. I wasn't trying to make is sound stupid - I was just showing her contradictory teachings.

I have not judged Beth - just her teachings. As for her obnoxious behavior - behavior is indeed something we can judge, and if she claims she is obnoxious - who am I to disagree? It is not becoming of a Christian teacher to behave in that manner - it brings shame upon the name of Christ when unbelievers see that as the norm.

As for Wordpres, I'm not changing my blog. I don't much about computer stuff and a pastor friend of mine set me up on this one.

Lucy said...

Thank you for your quick response to my comments. Let me first apologize I think I offended you and that was not my intention at all. If I'm not mistaken I believe you have encouraged your commenter's to show you where you are incorrect.

I don't believe I need to go back and watch this video again. I watched this segment 6 times this morning and took down word for word what she said and it is very clear that this statement is her speaking to her audience. When she says "and it just blew me away" you put "blow?" in beside it because blew didn't fit if this was God speaking to her, but in the context that she used "blew" it makes sense that she was saying this as her own thoughts to her audience. In no place did she say to her audience that this was something God said to her. Not to mention this is very much in keeping with things Beth says she feels for her audience in other videos etc.. So I really don't know why I need to take Personal Freedom Outreach's article that I would have to pay for to even read, as the truth when I have the videos and can check them for myself.

Glenn I am not trying to save anyone here, I believe that Beth Moore has some serious issues, some false teachings, and scripture twisting going on and she needs to come out and speak for herself. I am doing Esther right now for the sole purpose of critiquing it and possibly writing about it myself. But what I will not do is twist someone's words or take what they say out of context to make my case against them. That damages my credibility and my witness. If something isn't the whole truth we shouldn't be writing about it.

I wasn't implying you made Beth sound stupid in the "chip off the old block" analogy, I just think you could have added the rest of her statement so others could see for themselves what she was actually teaching about. Also I might add if someone is writing a blog, a book or an article they should cite their sources completely with page numbers, video session numbers etc. Someone shouldn't have to watch this whole 10 hour video session to check out the claims you are making. They should simply be able to go to the exact video session and watch to see for themselves if you are right or wrong. We aren't supposed to take anyone's word for what the truth of God's word is nor should we take someone else's word for anything else. We should check to see for ourselves if something is correct or not. When someone tells me someone is a false teacher I want to look into it on my own.
AS for my comment about wordpress, It was merely a suggestion, with a smiley face beside it. If someone has a longer comment they have to cut and paste it into more comments. If you like Google by all means stay with google, it works for you and it's none of my buisness.

Beth's obnoxious behavior doesn't make her a false teacher, I don't find her to be obnoxious I find her to be silly and high strung but that is not criteria for judging a teaching. If she was cursing in the pulpit or doing something perverted etc. that would be different but for me to say that all people who I find to be obnoxious are false teachers that would make me a lawgiver. Lets just judge her on her teaching shall we?
Also lets not assume we know the mind of God when we say "I really don't think God wants women to listen to Beth at all!" and how does Glenn Chatfield know this unless he is getting direct revelation from God?

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hello again, Lucy,

No need to apologize - I’m not offended at all! This is give and take and I can take just fine. And, yes, I want to know if I’m incorrect.

In the conversation about being “blown” way, I put “blow?” because I really couldn’t tell which word was used and I ran that thing several times and even asked my wife to listen to it. Either word would make sense in context. However, in my original review, which I just pulled out of my files, I see that I did question who the conversation was with because it wasn’t clear, but that it sounded like she was talking about a conversation with God. I’m not going to watch it again, but I’ll take your word that she is talking to people and I will delete that section. And I was mistaken - that issue wasn’t raised in the PFO article.

The “chip off the old block” situation is described pretty well, and in the actual context. The issue here was her making this as a reason Jesus supposedly gave Peter special authority, which he didn’t (that is a Roman Catholic idea).

This review does tell you sometimes which video I took the reference from - I see I stated session two with the “chip” issue. When I was transcribing this series, I wasn’t concerned about the time mark because this review was an informal review I did in 2005 at the request of one of the ladies at church. My original review is by session number. I felt it was easier to put all the special revelation claims together, then misuse of Scripture, then other aberrations - keeping them all together. Since this disturbs you, I will edit to note which session.

I didn’t say Beth’s obnoxious behavior made her a false teacher - I said it was unbecoming of a teacher of the Word, and brought disrepute. As for thinking God wouldn’t want women to listen to Beth, I did say I “don’t think” - it wasn’t any claim or knowing the mind of God. However, I don’t think God wants Christians to listen to false teachers of any ilk, be they cults or people like Moore. I don’t think you’ll find in Scripture that God says it’s okay to listen to false teachers.

Lucy said...

Thank you Glenn!

By the way there is an excellent video on Pirate Christian radio today, you may already know this but it is breaking down one of Beth's teachings she did on Life Today.

By the way I hope I'm not coming off as some angry groupie. I would like to say to them that you are just trying to examine Beth's teachings here and you are biblically within your rights to do so as we all should do. So if anyone who loves Beth reads this please don't take everything she teaches as the truth but really examine it to see if it's right.

I misunderstood the whole obnoxious thing and I apologize for that.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi again, Lucy,

Well, you'll notice I have the revision accomplished.

Have you looked at my other blogs about Beth Moore's teachings? Also, my last post mentioning Beth is http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2010/03/new-discernment-blog-beth-moore.html directing you to a very good analysis of Beth's claims of special revelations.

Yes, I saw that Pirate Radio had a post on Beth, but I haven't had time to watch yet.

Lucy said...

I did see the rest of your posts about Beth and I am noticing a lot more coming out about her all over the web. Thank you for the links.

I listened to part of that Pirate radio today and just have not been able to finish it, my house has been a zoo since this afternoon so I'm going to finish it in a few minutes. But I am half way through and he does a great job of breaking it down and showing you the error, I can't wait to finish it. It's just really sad Glenn, there is so much of this going on. I'm almost afraid to listen to anyone's teaching anymore, however I am listening to a lot of Bob Dewaay's resources and John MacArthur, hopefully they will stay true to the gospel of Jesus Christ we need good biblical teachings.

God Bless Glenn

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Bob DeWaay and John MacArthur are two good ones I have come to trust. MacArthur I've heard for years, but DeWaay is someone I came across a couple years ago while surfing the net for stuff on Beth Moore.

If you really want some good apologetics, PFO has the best quarter journal I've ever come across. Of course it isn't available on the net, but would be well worth the money. And you can get a CD with all their back issues for about $70 if I recall.

Another one to look at would be Midwest Christian Outreach at http://www.midwestoutreach.org/ on that page go to "Our Journal" and a good many of their more recent ones are available to download as pdf. These two organizations are who I found while researching Bill Gothard, and MCO especially has done more on him than anyone else. PFO holds a biennial Biblical discernment conference in St. Louis area which I highly recommend. (info on their site or link from my home page from my advertisement for them).

There are lots of solid teachers out there - you just have to look and be discerning.

Anonymous said...

I haven't read all of the comments but I would like to add something from what I did read. Jesus made very clear that one of the primary roles of the Holy Spirit is to be our TEACHER. It seems to me it would be kind of hard to be taught without some type of communication going on. I have had some amazing revelations from the Spirit and I regularly hear God's voice - as Jesus taught I would. See his teaching in John, I believe, on His sheep and His voice. I also know that anything that contradicts the Word is false - my flesh and yes, sometimes the enemy. We have to be so careful!

I need to apologize as I know a lot of Scripture but I'm terrible at references!

Now, I am not a big Beth Moore fan. I went to one of her conferences and walked away very disappointed - too much entertainment and not enough solid teaching. It was a lot of feel good stuff but not worth giving up an entire day with my family.

I would consider myself to be a pente-vangelist or evan-costel. Take your pick. The Holy Spirit is so much more powerful than a lot of evangelicals believe. At the same time, the whole word of faith thing is complete bunk. Yes, Scriptures do teach that our words have power (don't have the exact verse but it's in Proverbs that life and death is in the power of the tongue. And James has similar things to say about our tongues) BUT the word of faith junk misses that our words reflect what is in our heart. We are to focus on our heart and our words and actions will change. The words are the caboose - not the engine.

At the same time, this whole idea of battling the enemy is bunk too. The NT made it clear that all he can do is lie to us. It is our choice whether we believe him or not. This is just another flavor of Eden - the devil made me do it. I just didn't have enough faith to overcome him. BALONEY!

I'm surprised and disappointed to read that the Beth Moore is going in that direction.

As far as John McArthur, I went through his book, Charismatic Chaos, and was VERY disappointed. I was expecting a scholarly discussion on the problems with the charismatic teaching and doctrine and instead got a lot of prejudice with very little to back it up. I actually took the time to look up all of his proof texts and found they lacked substance and were, for the most part, just as misleading as the word of faith teachers.

Always be watchful and always let the Scriptures guide us to truth.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hello Anonymous 11/29/10,

Thank you for visiting my site. No need to apologize for being "terrible at references," I'm the same way!

As for hearing God's voice, I don't think we actually hear him audibly, and I would very much doubt anyone who claimed to do so. We "hear" God through His Word. The Holy Spirit guides us in what we read, if we are willing to listen to Him. But this is not the same as Beth's (and others') claims of direct give-and-take conversations.

I found MacArthur's "Charismatic Chaos" to be quite informative as to what is going on in the world of Charismania, including WOF teachers. I would be interested in knowing exactly what it is that you thing MacArthur takes out of context in Scripture, and exactly how you think he is prejudiced. I find him to be an excellent teacher (except for his Calvinism :oD)

Anonymous said...

Dear Glen,
Lotsa hot air to move a bagpipe. you are at best, a pharisee, at worst a mean and cynical man who has few words of encouragement and praise for anything good and nobel. Beth is a Christ-following woman who loves the LORD. If you fail to recognize this in her, perhaps you should take a long honest look at yourself and the fruit falling off your tree. I do not see Jesus anywhere in any of your writings. I know a withered fig when i see it. Bad tree=Bad Fruit. Bitter reports lead to a long time in the desert. Keep watch over snipes like you who would not know a move of God if it smacked you in the face.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Anonymous 6/21/12,

How very Christian of you to make ad hominem attacks against me without any substantive argument demonstrating the error of my analysis of Beth Moore.

You call me a “Pharisee,” yet demonstrate you have no knowledge what a Pharisee was or why they were condemned by Christ. I suggest you read this article about the subject:
http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2011/08/who-is-pharisee.html

I never denied that Beth Moore was a follower of Christ. What I have done is prove that she lies when she claims direct revelation from God, and that she abuses scripture horribly, let alone the other bad teachings she presents.

If you don’t “see Jesus” in my writings, perhaps it is because you don’t know Jesus - after all, you obviously are learning a false Jesus from Beth Moore.

Now, you mentioned my “fruit” and yet you gave no examples that my fruit was “bad,” nor did you bother to explain where I made any errors in my reports on Beth Moore. Apparently you are bound to the personality of Beth Moore rather than being discerning about her false teachings. I suggest you start acting like a Berean and examine what Moore says against Scripture.

Anonymous said...

The two major issues:

By your own testimony, Glenn, you have never communicated your concerns with this particular Christian author and speaker. You have not called BM, nor her husband, Keith, nor her ministry leadership. Yet you speak publicly about her as if you had a right and position to "review" her work. You do not. The Bible contains explicit directions that we are to take our grievances to the person. Certainly you know this, and admit it, yet give a weak and poor list of excusals for your failure to follow the Precept and Doctrine that you so fluidly quote. In this, you have failed to follow a directive from Jesus, yet you seem to have staked-out this blog as a place for your "ministry" a voice crying out to all of us "BEWARE".
Who can or should believe a man who shouts aloud how wrong another Christian is, and yet is not accountable to the Scripture he quotes?

This is the NT era. We have The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our Teacher. Who appointed you, and where is your accountability?? No Christian needs you to protect them. Instead, you enjoy your many words and long-winded arguments about how well-versed you are and how flawed so many other Christians are...it is sad.
This is where your fruit is evident.
The fruits of the Spirit:
LOVE JOY PEACE....surely you know them well...where is your love, Glenn? You accept in many of your articles that BM is a Christ-loving Christian, and as such, she is your sister, washed and accepted by Jesus. A part of the Body you yourself are a part of...
You see, a problem in the Body of Christ such as errors in teaching require committments to each other, to make Jesus shine in our areas of influence. You do not do this. Your obligation as a man who says he belongs to Jesus, is to contact BM, to apologize, to pray for her, and to repent.

The second thing is about the Pharisee-, and it goes like this: You bring a long-winded portrayal of letter and law and reason describing the Pharisee, and how people with a view of you as such are ignorant and emotional---honestly, it is funny to listen to a Pharisee describe a Pharisee in such vivid detail---and Glenn, you are accurate in the information you present---BUT, listen carefully---the MAIN problem of the Pharisee was more than the expansion of the Law and the burdens they facilitated--The main problem was that they stood nose to nose with Jesus and did not recognize Him. They became angry and conspiratorial of His work and His grace. I see you in this manner. You, no doubt will have a well-worded disagreement and a long oratory for reply. Please save your words and pour them out in prayer. I am praying over you, and over BM as the Holy Spirit has guided me to do. You need to apologize and repent. In person, and publicly.
Forty days have been appointed for you, please relent. Jesus cursed the fig tree, commanding it to shrivel and be barren...

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Anonymous,

Actually, if you would read ALL my articles about Beth Moore, you will find I have indeed attempted to communicate with Beth Moore and all I was given to communicate with was one of her “handlers.” All he did was defend her right to claim direct revelation from God by claiming she doesn’t do so, no matter how much evidence was given to prove otherwise.

But here’s the thing: No place in the Bible will you find that anyone has to communicate personally with a public teacher to criticize their teachings. What you refer to in Scripture is approaching someone who has SINNED personally against you. And I have never anywhere “admitted” a need to go personally to Moore. I challenge you to cite one passage from Scripture which says I have to go personally to a public teacher before I can expose her false teachings in public. I am NOT obligated to do so. Nor should I apologize to her for exposing her false teachings - SHE should apologize to the thousands of women (and men) who have accepted what she has taught as truth!

I have a RIGHT to “review” Beth’s work because her work is public and she is making tons of money off of it while leading Christians astray. Luke wrote that the Bereans were NOBLE for examining Paul’s teachings by comparing with Scripture and he didn’t complain that they didn’t check with Paul first!

Where is Beth Moore’s accountability? My accountability is God. You go on and on with an emotional attack against me, yet you have not demonstrated where a single thing I have written about Moore is in error.

Is it “love” to allow people to continue being deceived by a false teacher? And the charge of “Pharisee” is typical of false teachers and their followers when someone exposes them for who they are. All you demonstrate is YOUR lack of understanding of just what a Pharisee was and why Christ condemned them. I suggest you review my article at http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2011/08/who-is-pharisee.html

This year Beth had demonstrated more and more why she is a false teacher. While previously she has supported contemplative prayer, this year she has even publicly taught not only that, but also Lectio Divina method of reading Scripture. More deception for her followers.

Your “forty days have been appointed for you” claim is a false prophecy. I have nothing to repent of, or apologize for.

Anonymous said...

Dealing With False Teachers
14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
22 Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.

25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Anonymous,

I’m not sure what you are getting at here, or whether you are the same “anonymous” as the previous one - or even previous two. I think people should as least end with their name; anonymity is often due to cowardice, which should not be a problem here.

One thing your first passage points out is that “naming names” is certainly appropriate. Paul isn’t telling the people to go confront them personally - he is just exposing them as false teachers. Even in Galations 2 Paul talks about how he opposed Peter IN PUBLIC because of Peter’s false teachings - he did not go to Peter in private first.

Your second passage has nothing to do with my posts about Beth Moore, since they are not “foolish and stupid arguments,” nor are they unkind, nor am I resentful.

Beth Moore has been gently instructed by apologetics ministries in the past and has ignored them. I have attempted and have been rebuffed.

Beth Moore firstly is in rebellion against God as she has set herself up as a teacher over men. 1 Tim. 2:11-14.

Take a gander at Rom. 16:17-18 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. Moore’s teachings certainly have caused divisions between those who follower her and those who refuse to follow her false teachings. Her teachings are certainly contrary to Scripture, and her “smooth talk and flattery” have indeed deceived the minds of the naive people who follow her.

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. (2 Pet 2:1-3) Moore certainly has been proven to be a false teacher, not just by me but by many, many apologetics ministries. The latest to post on Moore this week is CARM:
http://carm.org/beth-moore She is introducing destructive mystical teachings among her followers. She is exploiting people with the many stories she has made up about God personally revealing her teachings to her.

We are to expose false teachings, plain and simple. There is no biblical mandate to go personally to a public false teacher prior to exposing her teachings (should I go to each Mormon leader personally? Should I go personally confront Benny Hinn, Rick Warren, Mark Driscoll, Joel Osteen, et al? OF COURSE NOT). Beyond that, I have no way to personally meet with Moore.

My ministry is to protect the flock by exposing the wolves and other dangers. I have publicly examined Beth Moore’s public teachings. There is no biblical requirement to check with her first (does one ask the wolf if it’s okay to point him out to the sheep?).

If I am in error in what I report, then show me the error. Otherwise, there is nothing biblically wrong about my writings. I do not attack Moore as a person, nor do I accuse her of not being a believer, nor do I ascribe motives for her false teachings.

If people followed your beliefs about how to expose false teachings, then none of the wolves would be exposed.

Anonymous said...

Glenn,
I am no coward, and I am no emotionally errant follower of anyone human. I love the LORD and I love all the members of HIS BODY. I will pray for you these 39 remaining days, boldy and publicly:

LORD Jesus,
Because of Your great love, bless this man Glenn. Be gracious and kind to him. I pray LORD that You expand his heart and fill it with Your love. his mind is keen and sharp, capable of great things, a certain imprint of Your magnificent hand...bless him with a heart that loves so much as match or even to eclipse his strong and capable mind.
Son of David, have mercy.
Amen.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Anonymous,

As I have responded to your false prophecy above:
Your “forty days have been appointed for you” claim is a false prophecy. I have nothing to repent of, or apologize for.

You are very presumptuous to speak for God. You are NOT a prophet of God. Perhaps you should repent of your blasphemy.

No further comments by you will be published. I have stated my policy in a previous post and it is as follows:

if you disagree with what I say, then demonstrate from Scripture or other data where I am in error and I will be more than willing to recant or correct the error. But if you include any personal attacks against me, your comment will not be posted. I have spent too much time correcting these sorts of comments and challenging commenters to explain the evidence for their personal attacks, and I don’t think it is a proper use of my time. Not only that, but why should I post someone behaving in an un-Christian manner?

Anonymous said...

Examine your heart, examine your motives.
1 Corinthians 13 (NIV)

13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

With purpose I set before you David:

1 Samuel 16:7
But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”

Glenn your issue is not your knowlege of scripture. It is obvious and well chronicled that you have a command of the Bible, that is excellent. However, your heart---Every time you claim a 'right" to "call-out" and "expose" people who are Christians, you err. You disagree. Interesting. I will continue to pray for you. You may do as your mind leads you. I will follow the LORD. I have seen your silence coming, and a withering.

Lord Jesus, forgive, even as You planned in advance to have mercy and forgive, please help this man who is so bound up in his great mind and knowlege. He claims rights and uses Your servants Paul and Luke to justify himself. You love, Lord Jesus, You love. We are to love as You do. I pray that You speak tenderly to him and lead him out of this mind-numbing darkness that causes a human to make public proclamations that are injurious to another. You alone know his heart, and his need. Be God to him, Lord over his life.
Praise You Adonai,
Amen.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Anonymous,
I stated that no more comments by you would be posted, but the hypocrisy in this last comment needed to be addressed.


You don’t give up, do you? You refuse to take correction. Am I the only apologist exposing Moore that you are confronting? There are many, many I can give links to so you can give more prophecies against them. Right off the bat, try Personal Freedom Outreach at www.pfo.org who have written five scholarly articles exposing Beth’s false teachings.

You now imply my motives are wrong - who are you to judge my motives? Who are you to say I do not do my ministry out of love?

YOU are the one who errs by saying Christians do not have a right to expose false teachings. YOU have presumptuously decided that Christians who teach false doctrine and other false teachings should not be exposed publicly. Who put YOU in such a judgment seat?

You have decided that my “public proclamations” are “injurious to another” but could care less that Moore’s public teachings are downright dangerous spiritually to follow.

I am NOT “bound up in [my] great mind and knowledge.” I never claimed to have a great mind or a great amount of knowledge. All I do is examine teachings against the Word of God.

You have made many judgments and proclamations against me by claiming I have no love, I have impure motives, that I have “mind-numbing darkness.” And yet you castigate ME for exposing false teachings. You sir/ma’am (cowardly remaining anonymous) are a hypocrite!

Again you claim to prophesy for God. You are a false prophet who presumes to speak for God. You see nothing coming for me or anyone else. You are now finished commenting on my blog as they will be moderated and deleted.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Anonymous,

WIthout shutting off comment availability on my blog, which would deny the rights of others, I cannot prevent you from "spamming" my in-box.

I delete all of your comments when they come in and do not read them.

So how about behaving as a real Christian and quit harassing me? You will not be posted, nor are you being read.

You have proven you are not a prophet of God, you have proven you are a hypocrite. Now prove that you can act properly and quit spamming me.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Anonymous,

Okay, now your unchristian behavior has reached its limit with me. Today I received your "letter".

You have a fraudulent return address, but a Honolulu postmark. This had better stop, because I will notify the Post Office that the mails are being used for harassment, which is a federal offense (I am an ex-Postal Worker so I know what I am talking about). I'm sure they will be able to know how to locate you.

I will press charges - for that you can be sure.

Brenda said...

Dear Mr. Chatfield,
Thank you for your research and reporting on Beth Moore. And especially for standing up against the personal attacks of folks who don't want to consider what you're saying. May our LORD grant you encouragement to persevere in His service of discerning false teaching (eg, revelation apart from God's Written Word, women teaching over men, etc).

I've glanced through a couple of her books and they are very "me" centered. And while the occasional anecdote can be useful for teaching, too much is not good. Women would be better served by doing Bible studies by Elizabeth George or Nancy Leigh DeMoss (to name two solid Bible teachers). Sigh... Come, LORD, come!! And in the meantime, God Bless you and give you His wisdom and discernment. In Christ, Brenda

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Brenda,

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement!

It's always good to see someone else having problems with Moore's teachings. It is just sad that Moore refuses correction. She could really do a lot of good since she has such a huge audience - if only she'd use discernment.

Thank you for visiting my blog.