We who preach the gospel must not think of ourselves as public relations agents sent to establish good will between Christ and the world. We must not imagine ourselves commissioned to make Christ acceptable to big business, the press, the world of sports or modern education. We are not diplomats but prophets, and our message is not a compromise but an ultimatum. A.W. Tozer
Therefore let God-inspired Scripture decide between us; and on whichever side be found doctrines in harmony with the word of God, in favor of that side will be cast the vote of truth. --Basil of Caesarea
Once you learn to discern, there's no going back. You will begin to spot the lie everywhere it appears.

I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service. 1 Timothy 1:12

Wednesday, September 27, 2017

Good, Bad, and Ugly

The Good:
When sin goes from shocking to amusing.  Excellent article address a huge problem in the culture and invading the church.

When communicating with members of cults (and followers of false teachings) be sure to define your terms.

The Apostolic Fathers and the Deity of Christ.  Good information for defending against those who claim Christ was made God by the Nicene council.

Is Hell eternal?  Yes, because that is what the Bible says.


The Bad:
No, Jesus didn’t tell her to do this, and that statue isn’t Jesus; but it seems to have become her idol.


The Ugly:
The abject heresy and apostasy which you get when put women in leadership positions in the Church.  Of course the ELCA went apostate decades ago anyway.

More proof of the heretical and apostate nature of the United Methodist Church.

The New Apostolic Reformation:  A very nutty, cultic group.

A female preacher’s conference will, by definition, be a collection of false teachers.  It’s worse than you think.

Todd White — teaches Word of Faith heresy, praises and admires arch-heretic Kenneth Copeland, and wears cultic Rastafarian hair style.  I truly think he is demon-possessed.


Kenneth Copeland—false teacher/prophet extraordinaire.  Side note: Copeland is thrilled that President Trump has regular visits with “Christians,” yet those so-called Christians are all false teachers who have no clue about the real Gospel, which is why apparently Trump doesn’t either!

The Humorous:
Joel Osteen’s new fashion line hides the wolf in sheep’s clothing.

33 comments:

Anonymous said...

Hi Glenn,

Ok wow, the picture at the top of the article "When sin goes from shocking to amusing" is really rough. Maybe warn your readers!

Michelle's article on women and false teachers, I agree with her except on one point. Men do not just enjoy false teachers, they ALSO worship them. The Bible is replete with examples of men who are idolaters, which is, in essence, what following a false teacher is (idolatry). I do agree the mechanics of how each gender is influenced may be different. Typically, women can be deceived by emotion. But men can be equally deceived and blinded, but usually by arrogant pride.

-Carolyn

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Carolyn,

Studies have shown (and my personal experience has shown) that women are much more easily swayed to false teachings than are men, because women operate more on emotions/feelings than do men. Yes there are men who are just like women in this regard, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

Anonymous said...

Glenn,

Sorry, this will be a point of disagreement. Our personal experiences and studies are not the benchmark of truth. Scripture is replete with examples of deceived men due to pride. Men and women are equally guilty of false teacher idolatry, like I said, in different ways.

Incidentally, if I were to base my judgment on my personal experience, I'd comment the opposite as you. I've seen far more men swayed by false teaching than women. Case in point, consider the number of pastors (men by default) who promote Rick Warren and the like.

-Carolyn

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Carolyn,

I'm not basing anything on my personal experience; I only pointed out that my personal experience agrees with the many studies which have been made. It is a matter of fact that men are generally more logical in their thinking processes while women are generally more emotional. This is why women, in general, are more easily swayed to false teachings..

The numbers of women following Beth Moore is exponentially more than men who follow Warren.

Martha said...

I personally cannot and will not believe the 'studies' on this one Glen, which incidentally would be interesting to review the source. In our current church state, the proof is literally in the content of the church resources as well as the Bible study programs offered.

Every single Bible study put forth via 'the church,' promotes a theologian or an author via their penned books, cd's and dvd's that accompany the study. Both genders are equally guilty of doing this and the authors are earning a lavish living using the LORD'S Holy Name in vain for gain.

In my neck of the woods, I grieve to see the likes of Andrew Wommack, Billy Graham, Benny Hinn, Rick Warren, Mike Bickle, Larry Osborne, (the list could go on and on here), etc., used by the men's Bible study programs as well as church leadership "required reading." I personally do NOT notice a difference in the idolatry ratings between the men and women in these so called conservative fundamentalist churches and one of the topics most talked about within these congregations is, "Who are you reading now?" Translated, one must be constantly reading, watching television (TBN is highly promoted to "feed" the sheep), or attending this or that conference or "fun" Christian(?) event to even be considered a serious Christian, most Congregationalists do NOT promote or encourage reading the Scriptural Texts/The Bible as the most important Bread of Life studies.

It is remarkable how as a child, the sermons were Scripturally based and we actually learned and were led by the Bible alone. In todays churched religion, one must (both genders equally) speak Christianese.....by promoting extra Biblical garbage...and some of the most abusive churches are guilty of this.....by design.

I completely disagree Glen. And for the record, when I declare the men's authors to be heretics, their anger ratio is busted, and then a "Jezebel sermon ensues." This is how the male ego operates in conservative authoritarian/abusive churches.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Martha,

Here's the thing; these men who are deceived are in the public eye in some way or another. The women the article addresses are not in the public eye but are you neighbors all over the country.

No one is even intimating that men cannot be deceived; the point is that women are more prone to deception IN GENERAL because of the fact that women operate more on feelings/emotions than do men. That's way Paul makes the point that EVE was deceived (Adam knew better).

There have been consistent studies over the decades which demonstrate how much easier it is for women to be seduced by cults and false teachers. It's just due to the general makeup of women vs men. YES there are men who are easily deceived, and YES there are women who are very discerning. But in GENERAL, you will see more women following false teachings than men.

Anonymous said...

Rick Warren, whose methods are global, used for decades, built on the sand foundation of multiple heretics, with tens and tens of thousands of churches (maybe more!) adopting his methods, pastors upon pastors "purpose driven" by their pride...

Martha and I will stand together. Men are JUST AS EASILY led astray as women, just in a different way. Men, too, worship their idols.

The Bible, not studies, is my standard.

-Carolyn

Martha said...

At the risk of being called a reviler, trouble maker, and a host of other derogatory names that I will not ponder, I willfully disagree Glen.

I literally sat as a pew sitter in a Baptist church denomination with an Assembly of God pastor for years and years; frankly, far too many years. And the "emotionalism stirred up by our big band Praise Team made BOTH genders prone to tears, dancing, talking in blubbering tongues (which only the pastor man supposedly interpreted by his signing and gifting - later caught in sexual sins of his own making), singing and swaying, and falling down drunk in spirits of sorts, and laughing hysterically......my point being BOTH genders were consumed with this religious activity equally.

And no, the women were not more prone to these emotional practices, in fact, many were LED BY MEN, deacons and elders in fact, and of course the charismatic Pentecostal assembly of god pastor, who was a product of the Toronto cursing. And this happens all over what most would consider rural America, in addition to all of those big city types out there.

I don't know what the "study" was conducted and the authors behind this research, but another frank moment here; I grow tired of the Chris Rosebrough types mocking women for being "emotional" as I have heard on his radio program, for I strongly, strongly disagree. And I also want to add, that one of the most strong emotions that I have seen and been the recipient of is this one......men's anger in church, especially when you call out one of their idols as a heretic.....boy, oh boy, is there ever an angry tongue lashing that ensues....and I won't even go into that "emotional Jezebel spirit sermon" our pastor man conducted before he was "caught" in his sin. I can still see that "emotionally charged smug look on his face" on that day when he accused many women in his congregation of having that jezebel spirit.

Most churches I've been too lately are doing a great job of ripping each other apart, instead of building up one another in the faith of Jesus, the only true Author. This is why I will stand behind the fact that ministry begins in the home, fellowshipping with one another.

Open to corrections here, but refuse to get too emotional over it as I know my Savior through His Words, not man or woman's penned words :).

Martha said...

I agree Carolyn as the Bereans were both men and women together.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

I've read the same results in study after study since I started in apologetics 40 years ago.

Again, I never said there are never any men who aren't deceived, nor that there are any women who aren't discerning. The fact is that women by nature are more driven by emotions than men. That is a fact with every topic.

As for deception, men usually are deceived by what SOUNDS good while women are usually deceived by what FEELS good.

Jesse said...

Hey Folks,

My apologies for butting in here, but I see that we have an interesting debate about how both genders are allegedly manipulated by different means. Actually, I want to ask an interrelated question. What is your stance on female "pastors"? Any thoughts, Martha or Carolyn? What are your thoughts on this, Glen?

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi Jesse,

I think the Scripture is quite clear that women are not to be in leadership roles in the Church.

Anonymous said...

Glenn,

Thanks for acknowledging the truthfulness of Roman Catholic doctrine. You have just spoken positively of the "Church". I really appreciate that, for now we shall advance a step further in your conversion process to Rome. As you shall see in early Christian history, all the Church Fathers were unanimous in the validity of our doctrines, while at the same time had no idea of your beliefs. Your "non-denominational" Christianity is a "Jonny come lately" idea!

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Anonymous Troll,

"Church" has one meaning -- all the believers in Christ.

Romanism/Papism is the "johnny come lately" since it didn't exist until early 5th century. The original Church was non-denominational and the original doctrines are all in the Bible -- you know, the place you won't find a perpetual virginity of Mary, you won't find the idolatry of the Mass, you won't find the pope or papist priesthood, you won't find the lying magesterium, you won't find purgatory or indulgences, etc, etc, etc.

GO find someone else to troll.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Anonymous Troll,

Yes, I know who you are, which is why I called you a troll, and you get no more audience here for your Papist proselytizing. And, no, you did not "demolish" Jesse and me with your papist worship. And you are a liar when you say that the early church fathers recognized a pope. You have been deceived by the devil.

Anonymous said...

May I try to resolve the women and deception discussion?

1 Cor 11 indicates deception is an equal opportunities employer. If you take all of the NT teaching on the role of women, I don't think you can conclude women are as such more prone to being deceived than men. The apostle Paul was grateful for the influence of Timothy's mother and grandmother who passed on the faith. Priscilla and Aquila both instructed Apollos "expounded to him the way of God more accurately". Women could (or can!!) pray and prophesy. The older women should teach the younger wives. This would be dangerous if they were intrinsically prone to deception.

I suggest women are, however, prone to deception and spiritual attack when they reject the limitation in Paul's teaching in 1 Tim 2, which I take to be universal and permanent rather than local land temporary. Adam was the custodian of the 'word' at the beginning, not Eve. And Eve was deceived when she tried to handle the word. Paul's limitation is very specific, no female bible teachers in the gathered church. Male elders only.

I think this explains why in today's church women who reject this, indeed are in rebellion against it by campaigning for female leaders and teachers, almost always end up in deception in other areas of doctrine. RHE is too obvious, Jory Micah is another example. They end up not continuing 'in faith and love and holiness, with modesty'.

I spent far too much time debating this on Wartburg Watch in the past, so I certainly exposed my thinking to differing interpretations! I couldn't but conclude that for many women, 'equality' in this area is an irrationally held belief. It's also clear some complementarians are treating women as second class in the kingdom of God.

Conversly, I've known more than one 'Priscilla', women who are extrememly discerning, and from whom I have learnt much. They, however, were quite content with the NT teaching on wives and elders/teachers.

Ken

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Ken,

I think you mean 2 Cor. 11

Again, I have NOT said men cannot be deceived. The facts are that because women are more emotional in their thinking processes, they are more likely to be deceived, nor have I intimated that ALL women are easily deceived. So you raise a strawman. As I noted, IN GENERAL, men are more deceived by what SOUNDS good while women are more deceived by what feels good, which is why so much of the false teachings promoted for women’s studies are all about feelings.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, haven't been online in a few days...

Jesse, to answer your question, Scripture is clear, pastors and elders and deacons in church assemblies are to be male. 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1 would be the texts I cite for reference.

Scripture does permit a woman to be involved in teaching men in the sense of Priscilla and Aquila taught Apollos, but that was not during the worship gathering. Acts 18:26 (Mentioned by Ken)

Speaking of... Ken, I appreciate your comment and insights, especially "It's also clear some complementarians are treating women as second class in the kingdom of God." Yes sadly, I have seen this.

Martha - I agree with you about men's anger being one of the strongest emotions. There are plenty of Scriptural admonitions against this very strong emotion, especially when it is exercised unrighteously. I also do not like the way men like Rosebrough have talked about their Christian sisters; what I have heard said is both disgraceful... and untrue.

-Carolyn

Anonymous said...

Hi Glenn

Sorry, 2 Cor 11 was in mind.

I think you have reacted rather defensively to what I wrote, which was intended as a comment on the discussion above with Carolyn and Martha. I'm not having a go at you!

I largely agree with you. Women mostly cannot separate doctrinal disagreements from their emotions, hence if you press too hard in arguing say about women leaders or mutual submission in marriage, they react emotionally, and more importantly take it personally. It may be that emotions make women more prone to deception, but a generalisation like this makes Paul seem inconsistent when he is in favour of women minstering in the church in general, only to specifically prohibit them from being teachers and having authority over men.

I commented recently over at The Junia Project blog http://juniaproject.com/friend-believes-biblical-gender-roles/

There ought to be 29 comments rather than 28, as I did a final one, but the fact it wasn't published makes me think that reasoned dissenting opinions are not actually wanted (unless they thought I was never going to stop!).

Ken

Jesse said...

Hi Glenn,

Well, I guess that you and I can say that we are on the same page here.

But anyway, these articles may be of assistance, since these issues are all interrelated (and have been brought up):

https://rationalchristiandiscernment.blogspot.com/2017/04/does-bible-permit-women-pastors.html

https://rationalchristiandiscernment.blogspot.com/2017/03/marriage-from-christian-perspective.html

Thanks

Jesse said...

Carolyn,

[Speaking of... Ken, I appreciate your comment and insights, especially "It's also clear some complementarians are treating women as second class in the kingdom of God." Yes sadly, I have seen this.]

And then women go spouting off this terrible misrepresentation of biblical teaching concerning the relationship between both genders. It makes God a "liar" when He called all His creations "good", and has even been the cause of people rejecting the gospel. These people need to be reminded that God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34; Romans 14:12; 1 Peter 1:17). Therefore, all men and women are equal.

Hopefully, we may successfully clear up this ruthless confusion, and remember the text of Galatians 3:28!

Anonymous said...

Hi Jesse,

I'm not sure what confusion there is here that needs clearing? Or what women here have gone off spouting any misrepresentations?

Anyhow, as to my original point, I still stand - and agree with Martha. Men don't just enjoy false teachers, they do worship them as much as women do theirs... men are just deceived in a different manner than women.

-Carolyn

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

I think you will find the number of women deceived to false teaching are exponentially higher than men.

Anonymous said...

Glenn (and everyone else who has participated),

I am going to exit this discussion. You are free to believe as you do about women, Glenn.

-Carolyn

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Carolyn,

What I believe about women and their more like susceptibility to false teachings has been demonstrated by plenty of research. Also, the fact of deception is one of the reasons Paul gives in 1 Tim 2 as the reason women are not to teach or have authority over men in the assembly. It's just a natural make up of women in GENERAL.

This does not denigrate women in any way--it only recognizes a weakness.

More men are indeed flocking to false teachings today more than any time in history, but I think that is due to the feminization of boys and men in the culture as well as with the LEFTIST churches--AND the seeker-sensitive/market driven churches and all those with the whole "Jesus is my boyfriend" paradigm.

Anonymous said...

Glenn,

I am writing this only to say goodbye.

After parsing Lesley's article with a fine tooth comb, re-reading your comments, pouring over the Scriptures that speak of deception, worship of idols etc (both OT and NT, both men and women), taking stock of yet *another* conference where a sound man is sharing the platform with an unsound teacher, and speaking with my husband, who, after reviewing all of the same, is in full agreement with my stance, I have made a decision to depart from more of the Christian blogosphere. Whether this is permanent or temporary, I cannot say, but for now, I have grown weary of much.

False teacher worship is an EQUAL problem, both men and women, though through different mechanisms. I could offer all the Scriptures I studied, but I will not. That is up to everyone to study to show themselves approved. Lesley is correct in some points, but unfortunately, a subtly skew is present. My husband noticed that about her article as well.

Press on in the faith, brother, and likewise my best to Jill, who has been an encouragement to me in many ways.

-Carolyn

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Carolyn,

It is sad that you allow one article and commentary about it to separate our paths. I've enjoyed your comments over the years, and I think readers have benefited from them.

I do think you are taking the comments here well beyond the meanings. But if you must leave, then so be it.

Blessing on all your endeavors.

Jesse said...

I just don't understand how this discussion became so emotional.

Anonymous said...

Carolyn - I nearly posted earlier, hoping that my own discussion of why women may be more susceptible to deception due to emotion had not appeared too one-sided. I know many women get fed up with the emotion card.

I also take your point about men showing emotion - anger in particular. If there is one weakness in men in the church, it is abdication of responsibility.

I've also had to 'come out from amongst' too much blogdom in my time. I'm very grateful to an author pointing out the damage that can happen if you spend too much time there - especially in my case the anger and bitterness of elements of the survivor blog sector. It can really get you down, and it is good to come away and rest awhile.

Ken

Martha said...

Dear Carolyn,

I will miss you here, for your humility shined through your comments, ministering to my soul in such a way that no one else could. Your love for our LORD Jesus Christ in believing and following Him as your Shepherd is evident, and I pray that He will continue to guide you in loving, helping, and ministering to those around you who are desperately in need of a Savior.

I completely agree with every word you wrote here, and the Gospel of this age has been reduced to gender, hierarchy, power and control, manipulation, and just plain foolishness to those who love to lord it over others. Jesus said, "This shall not be so amongst you."

This being said, I personally (a born again woman), will not allow myself to be drawn in to a debate in discussing hierarchy/authority or Nicolaitan speak, for the true Body of Jesus Christ mirrors Him, not the powers of this world. One of the last 'sermons from the pulpit stage' in the church building, came from the mouth/heart of a Pentecostal Assembly of God pastor man, with a evil sneer on his face while pacing back and forth in front of us, proclaimed "the evils of that Jezebel spirit amongst us." He singled out the women as he made eye contact with all of us. I will never forget that wicked face, nor his pride of this life. And frankly, his sermon did not make sense, although he did manipulate a few Scripture to suit his manipulative and authoritarian agenda. It was truly one of the most abusive, pathetic sermons I have heard to date, mocking the woman believers in Jesus Christ, our True Good Shepherd. A few weeks later, he was caught making sexual advances at a married woman with whom he was "counseling" and "pursuing." It wasn't the first time he was accused of making sexual advances, oh no, but this time he was caught, by a teenager who had enough courage and common sense to turn him into the church board. And the church board desired the pastor to receive "counseling" so they could "reinstate" him back into the pastor position. No firing, no letting him go, just a few counseling sessions.....this is precisely the ways of yes men within the gender bashing, hierarchal churches. Oh, how our LORD must be weeping (an emotion!).

I will miss you Carolyn and will be praying for you as my sister in Jesus, the Living Christ, who is doing a good work in you and in me, and in all sisters. I pray for your well being as Scriptures call us to rejoice with those who rejoice, per Romans, and I look forward to meeting you one day in Heaven, in the presence of our Glorious Shepherd and King, JESUS! I love you, Carolyn.

And for the record, I still do not agree with the 'general consensus' of the study/studies regarding the genders Glen, for my witness includes personal experiences within the visible church, both genders being quite emotional and unreasonable, equally. And this is a fact as we should all be discerning when addressing the Holy Scriptures, especially relying upon the Holy Spirit, who indwells in all believers, non-gender specific.

May our LORD Jesus Christ, who has all authority in Heaven and on earth, be with you, take good care of you, and bless you, precious Carolyn, for you are His chosen!

In love,
Martha


Martha said...

@ Jesse per October 5, 2017, 3:36 PM comment:

I sure hope that wasn't a mocking statement towards my sister in Christ Jesus, for this is precisely the kind of tripe I heard on a regular basis from the male "leadership (?) including the pastor man" within the last conservative church I ran out of (thankfully).

May our LORD give you His peace.

Martha

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

I think the big issue here is the "in general" being taken almost as meaning "all." And discussing whether women operate on emotions more than men has nothing to do with patriarchy, denigration of women, sexual abuse, etc.

The whole point is that a reason women are not to be pastors/teachers over men IN THE ASSEMBLY was summed up by Paul when he pointed to the fact that it was EVE who was deceived, not Adam. And research, including in the secular world, empirically demonstrates that women, moreso than men, operate on emotions (which is why, in GENERAL, women tend to be more compassionate). It isn't an attack on women to recognize basic facts of differences between men and women. Historically women have joined cults in greater numbers than men (except with Mormonism where women are seen as sex toys and men get to have many of them as wives) and the reason has normally been because the are attracted to teachings which make them feel good, which is why false teaching women (Beth Moore, Joyce Meyer, Priscilla Shire, et al) have such huge audiences who react very aggressively against those who criticize them. Just looking at this blog, it is women who are the most emotional and attacking when false teachers they love are exposed, while men usually just try to give you all the "rational" reasons why their favorite false teacher is a man of God.

No one here has ever suggested that only women can be deceived; After all, I was deceived into Mormonism! No one here has suggested that there are not solid, discerning women. Nor does the article linked to ever suggest such.

Our "personal witness" will vary because we are only viewing a tiny part of the overall church, let alone society as a whole. Researchers use HUGE samplings of the populations to come up with statements about "general" tendencies. When multiple researches over many years of time come to the same basic conclusion, it is silly to ignore the results because personal feelings may be hurt.

Jesse said...

Martha,

No, rather, the problem here is that you guys are seriously overeating to the discussion regarding which of the two genders are more susceptible to which kind(s) of deception. As a matter of fact, *much* of what Glenn has been saying all along in this article has already been *confirmed* by the latest replies alone. And I'm afraid that too much has been "reading into" the context of what has taken place here for matters to be cleared up easily.

None of this is meant to be taken personally, but any immature accusations of "mocking", "lording it over", "establishing a church hierarchy", and "being offensive" are not grounded on any logical foundation. All the men here (including myself) have emphatically stated that our remarks were not meant to serve as being derogatory (which is a double-standard). And I provided LINKS to articles on my blog addressing the biblical authority and functions of woman so that this dispute would NOT escalate this far (but apparently my words are null and void, right?). I do agree with Glenn on these issues.

It cannot be stressed enough that merely "pointing out a common observation" (i.e. women usually being more vulnerable to embracing deception) is not the same as "ridiculing" (i.e. making false statements such as "women are inferior to men"). This is true, whether you like it or not. But if any of this means anything at all, then all it means is that God will probably hold us (i.e. males) more ACCOUNTABLE for any of our corrupt thoughts, words, or deeds on judgment day.