We who preach the gospel must not think of ourselves as public relations agents sent to establish good will between Christ and the world. We must not imagine ourselves commissioned to make Christ acceptable to big business, the press, the world of sports or modern education. We are not diplomats but prophets, and our message is not a compromise but an ultimatum. A.W. Tozer

Thursday, January 7, 2010

Beth Moore Followers - and other angry commenters

Today I received another comment from an angry follower of Beth Moore. Rather than steer you to the particular comment, I am going to give you a highlight:

“Maybe you should be spending more time on your relationship with God instead of cutting down and criticizing the relationship that others like Beth have with God.”

Of course the poster has no idea how much time I spend in my relationship with God (I tend to think my apologetics ministry is part of my relationship with God.) And she makes the poor logic of associating criticizing someone’s teaching with cutting them down and criticizing their relationship with God.

Then she said, “Who are you to criticize what God is saying to someone else?” My response was that if someone is claiming to have direct revelation from God, who I am is a Berean who searches the Scriptures to see if what she says is true!

Of all the commentaries I have posted over the past 2 ½ years, those in which I’ve addressed the false teachings of Beth Moore get the most angry comments. It is interesting that they always have ad hominem attacks while never addressing the issues I bring forth; no objective examination of my critiques to explain where I might be in error (and I am more than willing to be corrected if I am in error), just charges of what a mean and spiteful person I am. Here are some more examples from Beth Moore zealots:

“stop wasting your time putting other people down, and start leading people to Christ for crying out loud!! i hope that no unsaved people find this blog.”

“I forgive you for bitterness against other Christians and will pray in intercession for you.”

“You have stepped into very dangerous ground where you will be required to give an account to God Almighty for the persecution of His dear believers such as Beth Moore. I will pray for God's mercy for your Parasitical [sic] comments and heart.”

“I fear somewhere along the way you have been hurt by a Southern girl and that is why you can not stand Beth's appearance or the way she delivers her Bible study. I am sorry if you have been transferring these strong emotions toward her”

“How it must grieve the Father's heart when His children slander one another”

“Mr. Chatfield, from what I have read of your inaccurate rantings concerning Beth Moore- you are a very jealous and envious man…Your bitterness toward God speaking directly to Beth speaks volumes of your own broken communication with God due to your derogotory [sic] attitude. I think you have a problem with women in the ministry- especially SUCCESSFUL women in the ministry. Your negativity toward a fellow believer will keep you right where you are- an unknown, angry blogger. As long as you sit in the seat of the scornful- you will never be annointed [sic]….My focus was mainly on the venom you have for a fellow Christian…You are so legalistic in your thinking. You need to ask yourself how Jesus would write this blog. Would he sound like you, or would He respond with TRUTH in LOVE? Your words are tearing down, not building up.”

“As a person who has read a number of Beth Moore books and participated in a number of her Bible studies, I find the evaluation of her ministry/teachings extremely judgmental (not to mention inaccurate)”

“Maybe you have to be a woman, Southern, or speak in tongues to understand Beth”

“Look at how much time you have waisted [sic] criticizing.”

“I found your post to be demeaning and sarcastic...not at all objective.”

“I find your criticisms to be harsh, and wonder if a lot of it is just a male /female divide thing (we are made to be different and we think differently!)”

“Oh nothing like a hypocrite such as you. Have you actually read the bible?…I can simply skim your blog before getting a massive migraine and tell that you're 1. Jealous of Beth Moore 2. Have a long walk to go before you'll have a moment where you have any business writing an apologetic for high school students. … You are one of those people who send new Christians running because of your out and out hypocricy [sic].”

These are only quotes from the comments; you should see the angry e-mails I have gotten with all sorts of attacks against my person, and lots of filthy language. The interesting thing here is that this is the type of thing I get from members of cults: no addressing of the issues I raise, just name-calling and general statements of how wrong I am. What I am finding is that these Beth Moore’s followers are very much like cult members: they viciously defend their “prophet” against any attempts to examine their prophet’s teachings. They refuse to objectively examine their prophet’s teaching because he/she claims direct revelations from God, as does Beth.

There are articles on other subjects where someone didn’t agree with me and, like Moore’s followers, they don’t address the issues, but do attack me. I’ve been told I claim to be perfect (where? when?), that I judge people (I don’t - I judge their teachings), that I “bash” churches (examining their teachings in light of Scripture becomes “bashing”), I discredit the work of Christ, that I am boring and stuffy, that I think I’m better than anyone else (I certainly don’t), that my blog is nothing but negativity and condemnation, that I have no love, that I “talk trash,” that I am a “bigoted coward,” and, welllllll - you get the picture. Of course my blog is not the only one where this happens; virtually every blog I read, whether Christian or just conservative, has these types of comments.

It seems to me that too many people don’t want to discuss the merits of my - or anyone’s - arguments, but they would rather just throw tantrums and blindly follow their favorite teachers or philosophies without ever examining their teachings alongside Scripture.

Now, here is the new rule for posting comments on my blog. If you disagree with what I say, then demonstrate from Scripture or other data where I am in error and I will be more than willing to recant or correct the error. But if you include any personal attacks against me, your comment will not be posted. I have spent too much time correcting these sorts of comments and challenging commenters to explain the evidence for their personal attacks, and I don’t think it is a proper use of my time. Not only that, but why should I post someone behaving in an un-Christian manner?

29 comments:

Marie said...

I bet these hateful comments make you go all fetal and cry your eyes out, too.

ROFL!!! Seriously, I've read most of those you cited and also noticed how emotionally-charged and completely devoid of doctrinal fact they all are. Those attacks/defense of aberrant but charismatic teacher are all very similar to the way people respond when you expose

1) charismania (including IHOP, Word of Faith teachers and the like); and

2) faulty Romanist teaching.

It is wearying, and especially hard for individual apologists/defenders/contenders....notice the Pyromaniac guys are a team. They are so well-known that, even though they are saying the exact same things we are, do you honestly think the cowards who post hateful comments on out blog would have the chutzpah to go up against Phil Johnson and company?

The biblical illiteracy (not to mention lack of discernment) in the professing Church today is astounding. And yet, these individuals attack the messenger (people like you who are attempting to point them back to the Scriptures).

As a woman, I sometimes wonder how much of these types of attacks Martha Peace gets for her writing. I wonder if it bothers her, if she does get a lot. We women, whether we want to admit it or not, tend to get more upset by this sort of thing - even when we know we are speaking the truth in love.

Ron Livesay said...

The comments are basically a bunch of shallow emotional nonsense. This one is very revealing: "...Your bitterness toward God speaking directly to Beth speaks volumes of your own broken communication with God..." It demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the sufficiency of Scripture and a complete disrespect for the value of Scripture. Whether it is the teachings of Beth Moore or books such as "The Shack," the current idea seems to be that God has realized that the Canon of Scripture is incomplete and needs some new additions. This is blasphemous at best.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

I posted a link in February to an article about how these sorts of people would deal with Paul if he was addressing the church today. It's still germane:

http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=9441

Anonymous said...

On the contrary, I think your postings are well done. I am thankful for your discernment and your gracious, scriputural and logical dealings with the spiritual issues. Keep up the good work!

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Thank you, anonymous, for those kind words!

Zach Attack said...

I still think this is hugely a waste of time. You have already said you receive tons of hate mail, correct? Is there not something more productive you could be doing with your time? Because out of Beth Moore's followers, I seriously doubt that you are changing their mind about her, and of those who dislike her, you just reaffirming what they already know. What, then, is your point? I'm sorry, you may say all day that you are just being a Berean and inspecting the Scriptures for yourself, but I don't believe that doing that on a blog is doing anything more than attempting to stir up dissension.

We are all supposed to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. To me, it seems that you need to let these women do that. I am not on one side or the other, as I firmly believe that I would rather do much better things with my time than devote entire blog posts to Beth Moore and how heretical I think she is. (For the record - I don't. It's called eating the fish and spitting out the bones.)

To whoever said that the "biblical literacy in the professing Church today is astounding"...I do not appreciate that! I think that sounds incredibly prideful on your part! For someone who just recently came back to God, this entire blog is one of the reasons I almost completely walked away from my faith.

Because I get tired of watching fighting from within. Beth Moore may be misinformed. You seem to have researched that better than I do. But I do not believe that she is speaking heresies, and I believe, after having seen her speak in person, and listened to her, that she has a calling from the Holy Spirit.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Zack (part one)

Is it really a waste of time to expose false teaching? Would you then say that Paul wasted his time in his letters whenever he exposed false teaching? When Jesus told the Pharisees that their legalistic burdens were false, was it a waste of His time?

Okay, so I get hate mail. My point in mentioning hate mail was to demonstrate the cultic nature of Beth Moore’s followers, as well as the followers of any other false teacher who get angry when their “prophet” is exposed as false. But should I then quit sounding the alarm? The prophets of the Old Testament were persecuted, often to the point of death. The writers of the epistles were persecuted by false teachers. Throughout history those who have exposed the false teachings of the Romanist church were persecuted unto death - and I should quit because of hate mail?

So you have determined that defending the flock against false teachings or false teachers is not a productive use of time? So if I see someone listening to the Mormons, I should just walk away and let him be led into spiritual darkness? So if Beth Moore leads people into spiritual bondage with her false teachings, should I just let them go as a sheep to the slaughter because telling them the truth is not productive?

You “seriously doubt” that anyone will change their mind about Beth Moore’s teachings because I post articles. I hate to be the one to tell you this, but I have already had several people tell me that my articles have opened their minds to leave Moore’s teachings behind. Believe it or not, some people do seek the truth and will latch onto it. People have told me the same about Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, and even Romanists - “you won’t change their mind.” I used to think abortion was okay until I was presented with evidence that made me realize that life existed from conception - what if the person who provided me with that information had been told, “you won’t change their minds”?

When you say I am attempting to stir up dissension, you are judging my motives, which is an unbiblical action. I have no desire to stir up dissension, but if dissension is stirred up over truth, then so be it. It’s just like those people who tell me “discussing doctrine divides”- yes it does: it divides truth from error.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Zack (part two),

So when people are being fed false teachings, you think we should just let them “work out their own salvation….”? Isn’t that pretty callous? “Hey, if they want to follow false teaching, that’s their problem - why should I tell them the truth? Let them figure it out on their own!”

You said there were “better things to do” with your time; by what standard of measure have you decided that exposing false teachings isn’t a good use of time? What if that is the ministry God has called me to?
For the record - I have never said Beth Moore is heretical. She has aberrant teachings, she syncretizes the Word of God with pop-psychology, she mishandles the Word of God, and claims direct revelation from God, but that is not the same as being heretical.

When people talk about “eating the fish and spitting out the bones,” they tend to forget that people choke on bones and die!

You state that “this entire blog is one of the reasons I almost completely walked away from my faith.” Are you saying that you read my blog and because of it, you almost walked away from your faith? Or do mean possibly things like this blog? Either way, I have to question what sort of faith you have if you walk away from it because there are people exposing what is false and directing you to the truth - sounds a bit odd, doesn’t it?

You “get tired of watching fighting from within”; so then you think the fight for the truth should be abandoned? You may believe Beth “has a calling from the Holy Spirit,” but your believing that does not make it true. I’m not saying she does or doesn’t, but judging by her claims of direct revelation and poor hermeneutics, she doesn’t appear to be listening to the Spirit’s leading. Your devotion to Beth after the evidence has been provided demonstrates your lack of discernment.

You claimed you are “not on one side or the other,” but when you come to the defense of Beth Moore, you have chosen a side.

peazy said...

What is wrong with so many Christians these days? Why can't they see the difference between questioning a person and questioning the person's teachings? We are definitely living in the last days.I am fully persuaded of that now.The height and depth and width of deception just floors me at times.
But one thing I know to be the whole truth and nothing but the truth, when all around me appears to be darkness.On Christ the solid rock I stand...peazy

peazy said...

I am thankful for people like Glenn,his blog and all others like it.In the past I recieved a whole lot of wrong teachings.It has taken a long time for those wrong teachings to work there way out of my heart and mind. It was not until the Lord opened my eyes to the false and put a love for the truth within me, that I began to change and see how very precious the Word of God is. So, the apologists have helped me to see things as they really are in the area of false teachings. I say God bless Glenn and others like him who are guided by the grace of God and a genuine love of the Truth! peazy

breakmysky said...

I am not sure I see the point in posting all these angry comments from Beth Moore fans, but it is refreshing to see that you love God's Word, and the teaching & defending of it.

The Bible does talk about how there are false prophets. I don't know that Beth is one, but Ephesians 4 is a good reminder for us. Let us grow up in maturity so that we are not tossed to and fro by every wind of false doctrine or teaching... in more ways than one, Beth is definitely ignoring the Scriptures, upfront just by calling herself a Bible teacher and promoting a women's bible teaching ministry.

Pray God provides grace, wisdom, and discernment to His children for how to combat the evil one and deceitful men and women that will try to take away from the Word of God.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hello Breakmysky,

Well, I thought the point of posting these comments was obvious. I was giving examples of angry responses people make when their favorite teacher is exposed as teaching falsely, and what cultic behavior this becomes. Also, I was giving examples of how they don't address my argument, but resort to attacking my character. And for that reason, I am no longer going to allow the posting of those types of comments,

I used to post whatever comment came in, except for those with foul language, false teachings, or links to undesirable sites. But it takes a lot of time to properly address some of these ad hominem attacks if posted.

A prophet is one speaks for God. Since Beth often claims to speak for God, she puts herself in the place of a prophet. Since what she claims comes from God is false, that makes her a false prophet. And since a lot of what she teaches is false - intentionally or not - that also makes her a false teacher.

I appreciate your kind words and your words of the Scripture as to how we need to be mature in our faith and not tossed about by every teaching.

breakmysky said...

Glenn thank you for your feedback. I am seeing how the scriptures do expose her false teaching.. it is a difficult subject matter to face though.

Difficult sometimes to call it what it is, but men that are called to teach the Word of God must do that and be bold when they need to be...

And as Christians we need to look to the Scriptures and the Lord for discernment and wisdom in all areas of life.. and call things what they are & not just call these people "confused."

As I said, I admit that is difficult for me to grasp as yes, the Lord is the final judge and knows all hearts, but we cannot neglect what His Scriptures clearly reveal, that help us know without a doubt, what is true and right and good on many issues that are fiercely debated among many.

Again, thank you for your blog. I will continue to poke around here to see what else I find.

sadparent said...

I have been trying to get my church leaders to at least check it out as to whether Beth Moore (and Kay Arthur) are into Contemplative or not. They just shake their heads and keep promoting them instead.

Question: is there any one site that has written verbage from either of them promoting it?

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi sadparent,

Lighthouse Trails has an article about Beth's participation in and support of the "Be Still" DVD which promotes contemplative prayer. You can see this at

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/bethmoorethumbsup.htm

I don't know of anything in that realm about Kay Arthur. I have been told by several people that Kay is becoming very chummy with Beth Moore.

Mamma Debi said...

Thank you for what you do-I unfortunately don't have the biblical knowledge to figure out what is wrong with some of teachings I hear, but somehow I just know "something" is wrong. I don't want to be left out by my christian girlfriends but I just can't receive false teachings. Here i am again "left out".
Melissa

Debra Riley said...

The angry comments Beth Moore followers make, almost always without understanding what they are supposed to be defending, are typical of her fans. Beth Moore teaches women to focus on their emotions, rather than God's Word, so this is what we can expect from those who have slavishly dangled after her nonsense. We can expect to see outbursts that are sometimes hysterical, always personal, and never factual.
Beth Moore preaches an egocentric gospel of inner healing with a dash of rank feminism, plus it has more than a whiff of the Manifest Son’s of God heresy. She has subtly led the way to the Emergent Church apostasy, and her followers blindly enter in to that broad way. I can just bet the she is also connected to Peter C. Wagner, but that’s another whole issue.
If you critique her teachings, you are told, and by her as well, that you are “touching God’s anointed!” This is a big problem, first because she and no one else in this age is God’s anointed! Jesus Christ was God’s anointed, and when the scriptures speak of the anointed of God, it is in reference to the Messiah, not Beth Moore or any other person today. The only other references to the anointed of God are to the King’s of Israel, those who were ordained by God to be king through the line of David, and before that only Saul was God’s annointed king of Israel. Beth Moore I can assure you is NOT God’s anointed, so you need not fear her claims. There is so much more that she speaks and represents that is false, and thankfully a good deal has been touched on is the blog.
One more issue; in this blog and elsewhere have extolled her as a Bible scholar with some flaws, but her Biblical scholarship is nonexistent. She is a poser, rather than displaying any real solid knowledge about scripture. Her teachings are filled with error and just plain old poor research and mistakes. But if you don’t know God’s word, then you might think she knows Hebrew and Greek! And like many false teachers today, her written statement of faith might fool you as well, as with this she presents the picture of standing on true Biblical principles. This is a ploy many use to snare the unwary Christian. What they say in these statements is not what is actually taught or even believed by these phonies.
Her leaven is spreading through her ardent followers, most of which are Biblically ignorant, self-centered and looking for someone to justify their corrupt desires, a dangerous combination for anyone claiming to know Christ.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

WOW Debra!

That was good! Just for clarification though, when I say Beth has some good teachings I don't mean good scholarship. What I mean is that often what she says about life and such is good, and she actually gets some Scriptural teachings half-way right! So not everything she says is bad, but neither was everything Joseph Smiths said bad. While she has some good stuff to say, it is far outweighed by all the poor teachings.

Thanks for that well-thought out comment.

Anonymous said...

Hello Debra, you must be my sister in CHRIST. Your comments are my precise thoughts after doing 4 Beth moore studies. When I mentioned some of the error in the study in private to the pastors wife, she vaguely agreed ,but decided she wanted to concentrate on the positive. I have become an outcast, and was not invited back to participate in other Beth Moore Beth bible studies. Iv'e posted more of my story on a review of Believing God by Beth Moore.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Hi Anonymous 3/5/10,

Do you have a link to your story you mention? If you don't want to put it here, can you send me an e-mail?

It is sad that you ladies become outcasts--it just shows the cultic nature of Moore's followers.

Anonymous said...

Hello Mr. Chatfield,
I am very new to message board, or how they really work . Thanks for your concern for us outcasts. Out of desperation to fellowship with other sold-out believers ..I have in this past week posted a portion of my story on CAFE BIBLIA. Post #23. I have already faced rejection by my study group,and every church in my area has 1-2 of her studies going. Please correct me in anything Biblical. I'm still growing in Christ

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Anonymous,

I read your post and posted one of my own. Your's was a very common story which I've heard from other women who have walked away from Beth Moore studies. The ticket is maturity, as you pointed out. A mature Christian is going to have discernment to notice most of the bad teaching, and a mature Christian won't put up with it!
May you be blessed in your study of the Word!

peazy said...

I praise God for all of you, who are standing for the Truth of God and exposing all the false teachers and preachers. Bless you!!!

Anonymous said...

Biblical absolutes are a hard pill to swallow, especially when held against philosophy that validates your carnal side. These followers of Beth Moore don't have a problem with you. They have a problem with God and the Bible.

scatteredsheep said...

Glen keep up the good work Brother! I am posting a link to your articles on facebook. They are much needed now as Beth Moore has a new book out. God bless and keep telling the truth!

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Thank you scatteredsheep; I feel honored to be linked from your facebook. :)

Anonymous said...

I know I'm a little late to the party but but my wife just brought home a Beth Moore bible study on Daniel and so i thought i would check her out considering the signs of the times we live in. I have been pretty much unaware of Mrs Moore up until this point. So i have only been researching her for a few days now and i would like to say i'm shocked by what i have found out about her erroneous teachings and her unacceptable associations/promoting such as Mr. Manning and her direct communications with God and that God would even call her honey in some of those conversations she's supposedly had with him ! as i said i would like to say that i am shocked and even bewildered that anyone would follow Mrs Moore at all. But that is the times we are living in and as one poster commented about the lack of discernment among the professing church i would say much the same and add also that the majority of professing churches in this country are exactly that, merely professing and not truly believing churches and thus not true Christians propagating them except perhaps a scattered few and i would say that God is calling his people out from among these types of "churches" before there faith is shipwrecked. How could born again believers fall for so many blatant and obviously serious errors propagated by the so many charlatans out there like Rick Warren, for the holy spirit indwells true believers and will guide them into all truth not lies or half truths and not the supposed truth's that come from men or their opinions and theories but God's truth according to his word, the final and only standard God's people have for determining what is truth and what is not. Thank you for having the courage to speak out and obey the word to expose those who are leading people away from God and not to him and for defending the faith.

finally.."in Christ" after 39 years of religion :) said...

What I don't understand is why if Paul Washer says he heard a voice in his head or Beth Moore says the Lord spoke to her.. How is it different.. are we not all hearing at least promptings of the Holy Spirit? And also.. Is she not allowed to teach ladies.. she isn't pastoring and doesn't invite men to her meetings .. that I've ever seen.. Isn't that ok? ..or not so much.. :)

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

finally.....

I’ve never heard of Paul Washer speaking of hearing a voice in his head, and I would have to know the context.

As for Beth Moore’s claims, I have demonstrated in the different reviews that she claims to have give-and-take conversations with God where He calls her “honey,” etc. And most of what she claims comes from God is unbiblical or erroneous, which demonstrates it cannot come from God.

“Promptings” from the Holy Spirit can be subjective and may or may not be what we think they are.

IF Moore was a good teacher, I wouldn’t be concerned about her teaching ladies. But since she has been proven to be a false teacher by many apologetics ministries, I don’t think she should be teaching anyone.