tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post3070355606670779820..comments2024-03-28T19:16:46.275-05:00Comments on The Watchman's Bagpipes: Analysis of IBLP “Character Sketches - Volume 1”Glenn E. Chatfieldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04117405535707961903noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-74628653034069654062015-01-18T11:29:49.206-06:002015-01-18T11:29:49.206-06:00It is not a "no true scotman" fallacy. I...It is not a "no true scotman" fallacy. IT is what the Bible says. 1 John 2:19.<br /><br />Glenn E. Chatfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04117405535707961903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-73930469707745074092015-01-18T11:03:10.499-06:002015-01-18T11:03:10.499-06:00Oh, Glenn. :) You've got something better for ...Oh, Glenn. :) You've got something better for me than "no true Scotsman", haven't you?<br />http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman<br /><br />"You weren't a Christin in the first place" is the sort of weak, grasping argument used by people profoundly insecure in their own faith. That's not you, is it? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-83113521846545555872015-01-18T09:24:01.690-06:002015-01-18T09:24:01.690-06:00Anonymous 1/18/15,
I appreciate your recognizing ...Anonymous 1/18/15,<br /><br />I appreciate your recognizing a false teacher and pointing out that he should not be teaching children.<br /><br />However, I have to disagree with your statement that you "are no longer a Christian."<br /><br />I submit that you never were one if you aren't one now. True Christians do not turn back from the faith.Glenn E. Chatfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04117405535707961903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-74768940899908043072015-01-18T03:23:05.683-06:002015-01-18T03:23:05.683-06:00Found this entry because a friend mentioned the fl...Found this entry because a friend mentioned the flying-squirrel colony in her roof. I vaguely recalled there being a Character Sketch on them, but couldn't remember what character quality they illustrated.<br /><br />I'm no longer a Christian (despite weekly Character Sketches, daily Wisdom Searches, Wisdom Booklets, decades of journals of answered prayer etc etc) so I don't have skin in these theological debates. But look at the history of how, where and by whom the CS books were written. Do you really want your children learning from *these* teachers? After all, look how I turned out. ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-6525106062621424712015-01-09T10:39:46.633-06:002015-01-09T10:39:46.633-06:00Anonymous 1/9/15,
Thank you for your very astute ...Anonymous 1/9/15,<br /><br />Thank you for your very astute comments.<br /><br />I follow Recovering Grace, and am continually appalled at what they are reporting about Gothard. I sometimes wonder if the man is even a real Christian. After all, he is indeed a wolf in sheep's clothing when it comes to teaching!Glenn E. Chatfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04117405535707961903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-66181546002682174552015-01-09T08:10:53.818-06:002015-01-09T08:10:53.818-06:00Hello Mr. Chatfield. I want to thank you for your ...Hello Mr. Chatfield. I want to thank you for your analysis of the Character Sketches. I find your writings on the topic to be of significant importance at this time, because I believe these are Mr. Gothard's most popular work. With his real motives having been exposed recently (www.recoveringgrace.org) and the fruit of his writings and involvements in the lives of others being made manifest, it is significant to note the twisting of scripture. It was easy to minimize small errors at one time, because they were sacrificed on the altar of character building. I see now that this was a significant mistake. You correctly nailed his misogyny. You correctly nailed his abuse of teachings on authority. The things written were subtle but they represent huge error in his life. For example, the teaching about not using your mind to study evil. This resulted in young people who were extremely innocent in their understanding of life who were ill prepared to know when boundary lines were being crossed by Gothard and his staff. These young ladies took years and years to understand the nature of what happened to them as being that of abuse. Thank you again for your exposure of error. PS. The serpent was subtle too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-15571788428653416512014-11-10T12:02:11.329-06:002014-11-10T12:02:11.329-06:00No one who claims to be an exorcist or demon chase...No one who claims to be an exorcist or demon chaser or whatever is really what he claims to be. There is no evidence from Scripture that there are specially-selected Christians to do spiritual warfare. In fact, most spiritual warfare is summed up in Eph 6. Those who write all the books and play on TV, etc are nothing but charlatans.<br /><br />According to Scripture, ANY Christian can command a demon to leave by invoking the name of Christ. But such an experience would be extremely rare, especially in the USA. I've read of cases in South America and Africa, and even in the East, but these people don't tell everyone what they do. The testimonies tend to come from others who were present, and they don't put the person up on a pedestal, rather they give the glory to God.Glenn E. Chatfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04117405535707961903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-42908629843297501012014-11-10T11:12:53.495-06:002014-11-10T11:12:53.495-06:00I agree that there is a lot of junk "Spiritua...I agree that there is a lot of junk "Spiritual Warfare" information out there. That doesn't negate the enemy's presence or actions. I also agree that it's not child's play, and no one should play around with demons, ever. There are some whom God has called to deal with them directly. Those make up a small fraction of the body of Christ. However, just like my comment about user awareness in matters of IT security, it is a disservice to the Church at large to falsely characterize our operating environment, or our enemy. If you desire to study spiritual warfare, get it from the veterans who have personally had to fight it. (There won't be many in the USA that are competent and sound in doctrine and practice. I don't know of any specific names that I'd recommend. But with a bit of research, one or two could be found.) I've had a couple brushes with what I'm pretty sure was demons, based upon the effects on me and the means I had to take to combat it. Therefore, I have a bit of respect for my enemy, and definitely try to avoid confrontation as much as possible, but I am not going to deny the activities of that enemy.<br />It is because of having a couple skirmishes with demons that I heartily agree with your assessment that most stuff out there on the topic isn't sound, and most Christians should avoid it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-54971723179955884752014-11-09T07:54:37.138-06:002014-11-09T07:54:37.138-06:00Anonymous,
Just a note about comments about demo...Anonymous, <br /><br />Just a note about comments about demons.<br /><br />I would say that, in general, Christians have no business playing with demons - or what they think are demons. 99% of all "spiritual warfare" taught by Gothard, C.Peter Wagner, Neil Anderson, et al, is nonsensical railing and babbling. And usually they just exchange popular psychology with "demons" so nothing people do is their fault.Glenn E. Chatfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04117405535707961903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-55491318011545389002014-11-09T07:23:35.503-06:002014-11-09T07:23:35.503-06:00Thinking of authority, Gothard's teaching fall...Thinking of authority, Gothard's teaching falls flat there as well. Any military officer knows that his allegiance is not to his supervisor, or even his commanding officer. It is to the Constitution that defines the government which in turn appoints the officials and officers over him. If he believes that an order is unlawful, it is his duty to question the order, and resolve its legality at the lowest level possible. That means if his supervisor gives him an unlawful order, he should speak to him about it, if it isn't resolved, he should then appeal it up to the next member of his chain of command, until it is resolved one way or the other. If it is determined to be a lawful order, he is obligated to fulfill it. However, even if it is not a lawful order, depending on how much it takes to overturn it, there will be consequences, and he must be willing to live with those.<br />We owe our allegiance to Christ. God has set up authorities on earth among men (see Rom 13:1). However, our obedience to Christ trumps our obedience to lower authorities, just like in my example of the military officer, his obedience to the Constitution trumps his obedience to his senior officers. When someone sees something wrong in what his chain of command is doing, he can tell the Inspector General, who can investigate and penalize the wrong-doers.<br />God holds those whom He puts in authority accountable, (see Daniel 4 and 5 for a couple good examples). However, we must be prepared to face the consequences of not obeying the order. Most whistle-blowers are not immune from reprisals or backlash, (even with the best of legal protection, which in its self usually has some secondary and tertiary consequences). Likewise, when we obey God rather than men as the Apostles did in Acts, we have to accept that we'll probably get flogged like they did.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-36762433856331031212014-11-09T07:21:47.590-06:002014-11-09T07:21:47.590-06:00I'm an information system security professiona...I'm an information system security professional by trade, (I protect data and the systems it resides on from compromise of confidentiality, integrity and availability, ie hacking). I state this because my employer has spent several thousand dollars training me to understand and sometimes think like a hacker. Every employee in my (very large) company has mandatory training on how hackers operate, and it's one of the best things that they do to protect our proprietary information. If my employer, who puts a great deal of emphasis on ensuring that the information it protects does not get into the wrong hands, mandates that every employee get annual refresher training on how to spot a hacker, and trains its network and info sec personnel to think like the hacker, how much more does it matter when it's eternity and our relationships with God, and those of the lost that's on the line?<br />Gothard's advice is terrible. Christ told His disciples <i>"Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves."</i> Matt 10:16 Moreover, in 2 Cor 2:10-11, Paul, addressing the reconciliation of someone who had previously been put out of fellowship at his direction (see 1 Cor), states that <i>But one whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for your sakes in the presence of Christ, so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.</i> In the first place, Christ was speaking to His disciples about a general stance of knowledgeable engagement of an audience hostile to the Gospel. In the second instance, Paul was speaking about a known threat vector. Without studying the schemes of the enemy, and not having a solid understanding of your authorities and rules of engagement, it would be very ill advised to engage any demon in any confrontation. Satan is a powerful, but a local, limited being, with demons under his authority, and many of those demons are dealt with above your pay grade.<br />(See Acts 19:13-17 and Jude vv 8-10 for examples of what happens to those who act on their own accord and not under proper authority when dealing with demons.)<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-64083414559046672412014-11-06T16:20:12.698-06:002014-11-06T16:20:12.698-06:00Hi Tom, Well, if you agree with Caleb, then perh...Hi Tom, Well, if you agree with Caleb, then perhaps you can demonstrate from the Bible where my analysis is error.<br /><br />I thought I covered the idea of learning details of evil quite plainly in my response. As noted, there are many times we MUST learn about the evil to protect against it. Sticking one’s head in the ground and pretending it doesn’t exist leaves one vulnerable. Some evil we MUST know the details about, such as false teachings. If we don’t understand the details of false teachings, then we can be deceived.<br /><br />Please explain to me how I am “legalistic” and like the Pharisees; you don’t seem to understand those terms. I suggest you review my article where I define what legalism is:<br />http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2012/01/two-dangers-to-church.html<br />(You should see Gothardism in every definition!)<br /><br />And then you might want to read what a Pharisee is:<br />http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2011/08/who-is-pharisee.html<br /><br />The <i>Character Sketches</i> abuse the Scripture. While they may have some good moral teachings, they abuse the Bible to arrive at the conclusions. And there is so much legalistic claims and requirement by Gothard as to what to read, when to read, and other “how to” nonsense as to render the text virtually useless.<br /><br />Citing the full text of Scripture Gothard uses to “prove” his point demonstrates pretty clearly how the full text has nothing to do with Gothard’s claim. Throughout all of Gothard’s teaching he continually denigrates the intellect, as if we are never to reason things through (of course if we can’t reason things through then we can’t be Bereans and recognize what a false teacher Gothard is!) And if, hypothetically, God didn’t want us to use our intellect but only our spirit, the passages cited still do not support the claim!<br /><br />You apparently didn’t read beyond that section of my post; you didn’t address any of my charges against Gothard for twisting Scripture from p.14 on, and yet those sections are definitive proof of his abuse of the texts, let alone proof of Gothard’s unsupported speculation for many of his claims.<br /><br />My suggestion is that you depart from Gothardism and free yourself from false and legalistic teachings.Glenn E. Chatfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04117405535707961903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-60794264385358790922014-11-06T14:57:11.475-06:002014-11-06T14:57:11.475-06:00I agree with Caleb said.
We are in fact not to us...I agree with Caleb said. <br />We are in fact not to use our minds for learning the details of evil since we are supposed to have only one God, the true God and nothing else before Him. He tells us to rest our mind on general things, and evil is not in the list, therefore, do not do it. It would be pointless. <br /><br />The author of this article seems fairly legalistic which is exactly what Jesus warns us about the Pharisees. The Character Sketches are not Bibles and therefore never claim to add or take away from the Word. Any omission you have pointed out seems very justified and your attempt to expose a problem with an omission by sighting the full text, didn't change any meaning or understanding in my opinion. The article claims use of the ellipses causes a problem, however the article author draws an incorrect conclusion. Gothard does not have a problem with intellectual people. The problem becomes when the people elevate their own intelligence beyond that of God's. If a proper reference to the full text accompanied the reading of the Character Sketch, the student would understand this. <br /><br />I found one thing I may agree with in the article but it is a stretch. I am fairly certain, the reference to his spirit should have been a reference to His spirit. I am sure the books intent was not to implicate some wacky self nourishing spirit but intended to implicate the Holy Spirit. This one thing is probably an editors misstep and a slight missed capitalization. I didn't check the copy I have, so it may have been an error introduced by this articles author. <br /><br />Sincerely,<br />TomTomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-86497875863285910432012-03-15T09:25:50.304-05:002012-03-15T09:25:50.304-05:00Caleb,
So you think my demonstrations of Gothard&...Caleb,<br /><br />So you think my demonstrations of Gothard's abuse of scripture to support his false and legalistic teachings are "flimsy opinions?" And that his abuse of Scripture is "minor"?<br /><br />Suppose you demonstrate why it is opinion vs fact!Glenn E. Chatfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04117405535707961903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-27263087150858141912012-03-15T08:10:42.454-05:002012-03-15T08:10:42.454-05:00I think I'll go ahead and order these three vo...I think I'll go ahead and order these three volumes for my family since you've done a very thorough scrutiny of them and the only thing you can come up with against them is your very flimsy opinions about extremely minor sentences in the text. <b>THANK YOU</b> for looking into these!Calebnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-10540594145417244202011-09-15T13:17:37.639-05:002011-09-15T13:17:37.639-05:00It comes down to power. They take a concept that i...It comes down to power. They take a concept that is Biblical, husband as head of the family, and twist and contort it until they say that the husband IS a god.<br /><br />Example: I know a man who argues that beating his wife is justified, using Genesis 3:16 as his proof text and that abuse is part of Eve's punishment.072591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-53692332890308776872011-09-14T15:06:22.068-05:002011-09-14T15:06:22.068-05:00I wonder why all these legalists, which is what I ...I wonder why all these legalists, which is what I think Gothard is, tend to have a low view of women? I pray that God would deliver women and girls out of churches where false teachings like those taught by Gothard are taught.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com