tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post5714118335449898572..comments2024-03-27T19:50:47.426-05:00Comments on The Watchman's Bagpipes: Bill Johnson and Bethel ChurchGlenn E. Chatfieldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04117405535707961903noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-10383116373192193352016-12-14T17:28:44.242-06:002016-12-14T17:28:44.242-06:00Greg,
If you want future comments posted here, yo...Greg,<br /><br />If you want future comments posted here, you need to leave out ad hominem attacks. You also need to leave out accusations without evidence. If you have a problem with what I write, you need to demonstrate from Scripture where I am wrong.<br /><br />This "ministry" of Bethel is certainly more satanic than anything else. It is man-centered false teaching manufacturing emotion, as has been demonstrated from all the evidence I have provided.<br /><br />Exposing the wolves is indeed benefiting the body of Christ; watchdogs protect the flock from the wolves. To say it is "partnering with the accuser of the brethren" assumes that Bill Johnson is a legitimate teacher and that Bethel is a legitimate Christian assembly, but the evidence refutes such an assumption.<br /><br />Christians are to be unified in TRUTH, not emotionalism and self-serving fraud.<br /><br />God call all Christians to expose false teachers; Paul said to let them be eternally condemned. And I am calling out Bethel as a den of wolves who blaspheme God.<br /><br />My prayer is that you would see the truth about what Bill Johnson and his cult really are.Glenn E. Chatfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04117405535707961903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-70006617555302395382016-12-14T16:06:37.669-06:002016-12-14T16:06:37.669-06:00This article and many others like it is very sad t...This article and many others like it is very sad to me. You have spent, along with many others, probably countless hours attempting to refute this ministry The sad thing is that you and others who work so hard to pick these ministries apart, think that you are doing a service to the Body of Christ. You are partnering with the accuser of the brethren who does not care who it uses to cause hate and discontent among God's people. I would prefer that God's people choose to focus on the things that unifies us and leave the issues that we differ on alone. The truth is, that you and I will be very surprised with who we find in Heaven one day and probably equally surprised with the ministries and works that God chooses to honor. <br /><br />If Bill Johnson and his ministry is some kind of cult, then God would call you to love and honor them as folks who need your prayers and who need the revelation of God even more. The prayer that God has had on my heart for me is that He would open the eyes of my heart that I might see Him as He is. May He do the same in your life. God bless you. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14427102697180049768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-34943291718073121572016-09-28T10:41:59.316-05:002016-09-28T10:41:59.316-05:00Hi Glenn,
Two quick things:
First, you said, &qu...Hi Glenn,<br /><br />Two quick things:<br /><br />First, you said, "There's nothing wrong with complaining, if it's done politely :) In fact, it can be very necessary to prevent apostasy. I became known as "complaining" because I pointed out false teaching invading -- but if one is speaking truth graciously, then being called a complainer really isn't fair, but that's what happens when you step on peoples' toes with truth."<br /><br />That is so true. "Complaining" about false teaching, worldliness, etc, is absolutely necessary to prevent apostasy, but unfortunately even if you do so graciously, far too often, you'll be labeled a pejorative.<br /><br />Second, to Martha's last comment... I think it's very common for believers to struggle from time to time getting caught up in some form of error. After all, does not a good hymn say that we are "prone to wander"? But God is faithful to keep His children on track. Martha, take heart. The Lord convicted you. The Holy Spirit led you to the truth. You repented, and you went back to the written word. 1 John 1:9<br /><br />-CarolynAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-9858449232380863532016-09-23T08:43:59.996-05:002016-09-23T08:43:59.996-05:00Just another quick note here concerning Carolyn fo...Just another quick note here concerning Carolyn focusing on the word "fire."<br /><br />To my shame and foolishness, I was caught up in the charismatic movement for several years, being led of course by women and men who attended the Toronto Blessing (our Assembly of God pastor attended this) as well as other 'moves of god,' ie., Todd Bentley's Lakeland show, etc. So there was this competition amongst the charismatics to visibly 'show how close they were to god' with their bizarre extra Biblical revelations and experiences. <br /><br />The word "fire" was used often as a sign of revival as in: "light our hearts on fire," "calling down fire from heaven," "send us holy fire," were just a few of the myriad of the phrases used to ask god for revival upon this land. <br /><br />I began to question this 'spiritual competition' within the church I was attending for true unity in the Body of Christ DOES NOT involve spiritually competing against one another so as to gain followers after ourselves. And of course, us lower laity sheep were always the ones talked down too, as in "just not quite there yet," or those who deemed themselves 'more spiritual, giving me books from the Trinity Broadcasting wolves in sheep's clothing to read and study so that I could be "in tune" with a holy spirit of sorts, and strongly encouraged to pay big bucks to attend conferences and 'revivals' to "get fed more." Incidentally, not one person, including the AOG pastor man, ever encouraged me to read, study and meditate upon our Scriptures....it was always this man or that woman's teachings based on the spiritual agendas they were promoting at that time. Spiritual mapping, for example, was used for a year....so spiritual trends were more important than God's Word.<br /><br />Then I finally did a Bible Study for myself and allowed the Holy Spirit to point me to the truth outside of the Baptist church I was attending (with our AOG head pastor), and discovered that the word "fire" was used most often in our Scriptures with "judgement." Wow! Was I ever concerned with these new truths that I was learning and in looking at my short charismatic experience, know now, that we were being judged by our LORD for seeking 'the fire' outside of His Word.<br /><br />I repented of seeking our LORD outside of His Word and have grown tremendously in my faith in Jesus after leaving that apostate church, who claims to know a jesus better than those outside of their religious system. May God forgive my soul.Marthanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-50482363470233832422016-09-20T20:34:49.416-05:002016-09-20T20:34:49.416-05:00Robyn,
In the "old days" one didn't...Robyn,<br /><br />In the "old days" one didn't have to pay a whole lot of attention to the lyrics because there weren't many bad ones around! And discerning pastors didn't use them. But, yes, once you become aware you can no longer be oblivious. That's what I discovered with discernment overall, which is why I liked this quote on my blog: <i>Once you learn to discern, there's no going back. You will begin to spot the lie everywhere it appears.</i><br /><br />Well, I refuse to sing anything by Vineyard, Hillsong, Bethel Redding, or Latter Rain. Others with bad lyrics I also refuse. It the assembly we left back about 18 months ago this was getting too often and finally between various "political" issues and the new "worship" leader bringing in such junk and making every service into a concert that we couldn't stay there. In our current assembly they occasionally use some of these and I just stand without singing -- I don't have my arms crossed. I just stand there trying to worship. I think making a grumpy face, crossing arms, etc would draw attention and then you'd have people questioning you and then one could end up with too much trouble. <br /><br />Oh, that song you describe sound horrid!!!<br /><br />If the songs continue to get worse, you can try to talk to the leadership -- as I did (elders, even pastor and "worship" leader). And after you've done what you can, your only option is the one we took -- leave and find another assembly.<br /><br />There's nothing wrong with complaining, if it's done politely :) In fact, it can be very necessary to prevent apostasy. I became known as "complaining" because I pointed out false teaching invading -- but if one is speaking truth graciously, then being called a complainer really isn't fair, but that's what happens when you step on peoples' toes with truth.Glenn E. Chatfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04117405535707961903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-50736265412236662362016-09-20T17:10:50.202-05:002016-09-20T17:10:50.202-05:00I've never paid much attention to the lyrics o...I've never paid much attention to the lyrics of worship music, so I wasn't ever bothered by what we sang in church. But...now I'm more aware, and I wonder if I'd rather be oblivious again. I can't enjoy our worship service at all because many of the lyrics are weak or barely scriptural. I've stopped singing lyrics that are clearly not true or that could be misinterpreted. That means I'm sometimes standing with my arms folded, frowning a bit, which isn't what I want to do in church. How do you all deal with that problem without becoming an annoyance to the worship team and a grumpy, complaining member of the church? One song that bugs me has the lyrics "You're never gonna let, you're never gonna let me doowwwwwwnnn," repeated a dozen times. That's poorly worded and could be interpreted as, we won't ever feel disappointed in what God allows in our lives. I'm disappointed all the time because I hoped for something and prayed for something that God hasn't given me! Maybe the songwriters meant for the song to say, God will never leave us, even if we are experiencing hardship. But to me, the lyrics are so unclear that it sounds like a lie...in fact I was quite angry this Sunday hearing that song because all I could think was, "REALLY? I've often felt like God let me down!" How did Jeremiah feel when he spoke God's word and was repeatedly imprisoned and thrashed? Probably felt like God let him down. It's just too simplistic to say that, because feeling let down is part of our spiritual growth. But my inclination is to enjoy worship service despite these shortcomings because I don't want to complain...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04709778502311222824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-32530122669430453772016-09-20T13:59:08.410-05:002016-09-20T13:59:08.410-05:00Hi Carolyn,
Yeah, all that charismatic nonsense a...Hi Carolyn,<br /><br />Yeah, all that charismatic nonsense about fire and flood, etc -- I wonder how many non-charismatics even think about what these lyrics mean?!?! They are unbiblical nonsense!<br /><br />Every time these CCM authors tackle an old hymn, they ruin it. And yet the sheep go blithely along not even noticing--and not even thinking about what they are singing. I'm soooooo tired of it.Glenn E. Chatfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04117405535707961903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-54864271545182620802016-09-20T13:13:49.873-05:002016-09-20T13:13:49.873-05:00Your post here on Johnson/Bethel got me thinking a...Your post here on Johnson/Bethel got me thinking about another CCM piece that has bothered me for a while.<br /><br />Chris Tomlin re-wrote an old hymn "Oh Worship The King". You can look up the lyrics to Tomlin's version here:<br />http://www.songlyrics.com/chris-tomlin/o-worship-the-king-lyrics/<br /><br />The one lyric that always bugged me is this last line (preceding one shown for context):<br /><br />Your glories and wonders, what tongue can recite?<br />**You breathe in the air, You shine in the light**<br /><br />Now, check the original hymn. That's not what the original lyrics say. <br />http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/w/owtking.htm<br /><br />They say:<br /><br />Thy bountiful care, what tongue can recite?<br />It breathes in the air, it shines in the light;<br />It streams from the hills, it descends to the plain,<br />And sweetly distills in the dew and the rain.<br /><br />Notice the subtle change Tomlin made, which turned the original lyrics into something strange. Tomlin's lyrics almost seem pantheistic. <br /><br />I really can't stand when Tomlin alters hymnody. Wish he'd just write his own songs and leave the hymnal alone. Haven't seen him add one useful thing to a hymn yet.<br /><br />-CarolynAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-76924324196582534102016-09-20T12:58:27.929-05:002016-09-20T12:58:27.929-05:00"Somebody Needs To Set The Jesus Culture Musi..."Somebody Needs To Set The Jesus Culture Music On Fire"<br /><br />Read it. I personally don't get the point of so many of the CCM lyrics. Not only the fire/burning motif, but water/flood also just gets so tiresome. Plus, like with fire, flooding is a judgement. I also can't stand the "Holy Spirit" type lyrics, where they constantly ask Him to come, to be poured out, to fall down/rain down, etc, as if He weren't already indwelling in me.<br /><br />Mercy. I don't want a fire in my soul, a flood to wash over me, the Holy Spirit to fall down on me... I'm not in an ocean drowning, in a desert wandering, hanging on in the middle of a storm, nor am I running to anyone's arms... I'm not broken, desperate, hungry, aching, longing...<br /><br />I'm just an ordinary Christian who wants to sing some doctrinally sound hymnody!<br /><br />-CarolynAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-11000065864971922032016-09-20T08:26:06.425-05:002016-09-20T08:26:06.425-05:00Well said, Martha!
If you've read over my pas...Well said, Martha!<br /><br />If you've read over my past posts about various songs used in today's assemblies, you'll know I agree 100% with what you said.<br /><br />Stay tuned for tomorrow's post -- I'm drafting up an open letter to "worship" leaders.Glenn E. Chatfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04117405535707961903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6043971967398769903.post-18257933058012163252016-09-20T07:52:26.707-05:002016-09-20T07:52:26.707-05:00"Somebody Needs To Set The Jesus Culture Musi..."Somebody Needs To Set The Jesus Culture Music On Fire"<br /><br />Appropriate article for the time in which we live. Many of us are judged by our religious peers for the way in which we choose to worship our LORD in song. I personally love the Psalms, and in fact, is my favorite Old Testament Book, for which I can sing and praise our LORD every day with these Holy Spirit inspired words. The Psalms are sound Biblical doctrine. <br /><br />Within all of our local churches, the contemporary movement reigns supreme with no psalms ever sang and very few hymns of sound doctrine chosen. They are said to be too boring, too slow, and sleeper songs....guess what comes out of the mouth/heart isn't so important anymore. <br /><br />Those within this new and improved worship methodology, judge us by saying that we are truly not Christian because we choose not to sing their feel good songs, nor are our arms waving in the air, nor do we attend those so called Christian concerts for extravangant ticket prices (that doesn't include the expenses of lodging, food, and trinkets-meaning buying the Christian artists cd's, t-shirts, jewelry, books, etc.), nor do we applaud or flatter our 'praise band' for how great they are, nor do we recognize the great sacrifices they are doing for the lord, a lord, or perhaps their own vain glory. <br /><br />What is called 'worship' in our churches has become a big show for the narcissists in my opinion, who love to be worshiped in place of Christ. They love the sound of their own voices, their own lyrical solo, their own guitar and drum solos, the applause, the back pats, the compliments of how great they are, and the manipulation and control they have to sway the assembly's emotions and feelings. <br /><br />Does our Father desire this 'big show' from His people? Or does He already know what is going on in the hearts and minds of man? <br /><br />Worship in today's apostate church is called entertainment. Our LORD does not need our entertainment. <br /><br />MarthaMarthanoreply@blogger.com